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+--- Thread: ‘This Is How We Lost to the White Man’ (/showthread.php?tid=53993)
‘This Is How We Lost to the White Man’ - guitarist - 04-29-2008
For those who have gotten an earful of Wright's brand of black empowerment, here's a contrary, and controversial point of view from another leading voice in the community, who has equally passionate opinions on the subject of African-American progress.
An interview with Bill Cosby by writer Ta-Nehisi Coates, in this months Atlantic Magazine:
‘This Is How We Lost to the White Man’
The audacity of Bill Cosby’s black conservatism
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200805/cosby
Re: ‘This Is How We Lost to the White Man’ - Black Landlord - 04-29-2008
Good stuff, thanks.
Re: ‘This Is How We Lost to the White Man’ - vision63 - 04-29-2008
I think Ta-Nehisi could have made his point in many fewer paragraphs. That was a chore.
Re: ‘This Is How We Lost to the White Man’ - guitarist - 04-29-2008
LOL at least you read it (or maybe did) Atlantic Magazine is not exactly a coloring book, or bathroom reading, or Dentist Office reading. Be thankful it wasn't Harpers! Or the New Yorker. You'd have passed out from boredom by now. Those are about the only three magazines left that publish articles longer than two pages. And I agree, I think the subject was more interesting than the author in this case, Ta-Nehisi made an otherwise engaging profile seem unnecessarily labored.
Re: ‘This Is How We Lost to the White Man’ - $tevie - 04-29-2008
New Yorker articles are not nearly as lengthy since William Shawn left (as well as a lot less crappy since his successor Tina Brown left, thank God).
I didn't find the article labored at all. I think the author made a point of including various points of view about the topic which I appreciated, and I think the article was a fairly easy read considering the fact that all the ground he was covering and all the sources he cites could have made it read like a term paper.
I'm not quite sure what to make of Dr. Cosby. On the one hand, I find some of what he says agreeable. But his remarks are very easy to pluck out of context and use to defend views that I find not so agreeable.
Re: ‘This Is How We Lost to the White Man’ - vision63 - 04-29-2008
I liked the article, and the author went (way) out of his way to present a balanced framework from which to discuss the issues that Cos is so emotionally determined to express. Cosby is 71 now and doesn't want to leave anything on the table. His methods have become highly controversial which is fine I suppose. On the one hand he address hardcore entrenched dysfunction, which certainly exists. On the other hand it comes off like it's the norm throughout the entire race, which isn't really accurate. He feels like he hasn't the time to feather the details and wants to have a major impact without being dragged into energy sucking procedure examination. He believes that his vast experiences as a performer, educator, parent and person "from" the 'hood, qualifies him to speak out forcefully. He's right. It does. But $tevie is right too.
Re: ‘This Is How We Lost to the White Man’ - guitarist - 04-29-2008
It makes uncomfortable reading, because the author, young and "liberal," flinches from Cosby's hard message and looks everywhere for reasons to reject it. In the end, though, he can't help but find a lot to like.
Re: ‘This Is How We Lost to the White Man’ - mattkime - 04-29-2008
>>because the author, young and "liberal,"
Yes, and its become a popular idea among conservatives that money is the reward for virtue which cosby is generally agreeing with.
Cosby's general message is very good and then he proceeds to destroy it in the details. there is simply no reason to insult the way people name their children.
Re: ‘This Is How We Lost to the White Man’ - $tevie - 04-29-2008
[quote mattkime]Cosby's general message is very good and then he proceeds to destroy it in the details. there is simply no reason to insult the way people name their children.
Perhaps he was psychologically scarred from making millions working with people named Tempestt, Keshia, and Raven-Symoné.
Re: ‘This Is How We Lost to the White Man’ - guitarist - 04-29-2008
[quote mattkime]>>because the author, young and "liberal,"
Yes, and its become a popular idea among conservatives that money is the reward for virtue which cosby is generally agreeing with.
Interesting that you'd characterize this as an exclusively conservative idea (money as a reward for virtue is quite the popular idea among affluent liberals too, money doesn't care what your political inclination is, bank accounts don't have party affiliations) or label Cosby a conservative because his ideas are contrary or unpopular. Is Cosby a conservative? (I don't think he is politically, but to be honest I'm not sure) Or is he just rich? The two aren't necessarily synonymous.
Cosby's general message is very good and then he proceeds to destroy it in the details. there is simply no reason to insult the way people name their children.
Actually I agree, I think Cosby's rant about names was misguided, it alienated some of the people who otherwise would be allies. There was a strong negative reaction to his statements about that, it obscured other parts of his message. But with respect to his generational point of view, he's not completely wrong, either.
I think if your neighbor named her son "bonehead", or her daughter "Koweshalamarama" you might question her judgement, and wonder how their potential might be limited by the unfortunate name choices. But would you dare challenge it directly? No, that would risk being discourteous, or disrespectful to their "culture" (even though they're American) I think a lot of successful young black people with screwy-sounding fake Africanized names have a right to object to Cosby's insult, they're the exception, their names didn't determine or inhibit their success.
I think Cosby is off-message here, confusing something he's personally offended by with something that's connected to his other concerns. His generation is old-school, their parents fought hard for equal opportunity for their kids, self-reliance, dignity, education, and assimilation was viewed the path to get there. As the author pointed out, one of the benefits of liberty and equality is the freedom to squander it how you wish, by being vulgar, or materialistic, or trivial, or fake afro-centric, or using slang words that were viewed as toxic by his generation, but are common currency now. Sometimes Cosby is like a proud warrior, taking an unpopular stance, other times he's just an angry old guy, and the two sometimes contradict each other.
Also, when a guy named Scooter Libby makes it into the highest levels of the Executive branch, or a woman named Cokie Roberts becomes a Congressional correspondent and Senior News Analyst, it's hard to make the case that goofy name choices automatically cripple future career success!