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+--- Thread: When a hostage dies in a rescue attempt... the Blame Game (/showthread.php?tid=104676)
Re: When a hostage dies in a rescue attempt... the Blame Game - davester - 10-11-2010
swampy wrote:
So how do you feel when the shoe is on the other foot, as in Blackhawk Down? A lot of our guys got killed trying to capture some renegades.
...and this has what to do with anything?
Re: When a hostage dies in a rescue attempt... the Blame Game - Grace62 - 10-11-2010
$tevie wrote:
When you have evidence that they threw the grenade at her on purpose, give me a call. Until then it's a tragedy of war. War isn't real healthy for its participants nor the victims of its existence.
So you're not for investigating and understanding what went wrong? Was it wise to toss a live grenade into a small enclosure where a captive is being held? Her captors were killed by that same grenade, it appears. If you or someone you love is the next captive, you'll probably appreciate the effort of getting it right next time.
That aside, in addition to the tragic loss of life, this is a political nightmare for new British PM David Cameron, who issued the order allowing US forces to attempt a rescue. Brits have successfully rescued American civilian hostages from the Taliban and have different methodology when it comes to special forces. Not saying one is better or worse, just different.
While they appreciate the efforts of the Americans to save this young woman, I'm sure her countrymen will want to know how and if British commanders participated, and if not, why not.
We have to be unafraid of the truth, otherwise we keep repeating the same mistakes. Applies in war or peace.
Re: When a hostage dies in a rescue attempt... the Blame Game - $tevie - 10-11-2010
I didn't say I'm against investigating it. But I am sort of against sitting around speculating as to whether someone screwed things up. Why assume the worst?
Re: When a hostage dies in a rescue attempt... the Blame Game - Black Tea - 10-11-2010
Let's all just agree that it was the fault of the Islamic fascist terrorists who took her captive.
Re: When a hostage dies in a rescue attempt... the Blame Game - davester - 10-11-2010
Black Tea wrote:
Let's all just agree that it was the fault of the Islamic fascist terrorists who took her captive.
Sounds like you have some information you're not sharing with us. She was indeed apparently kidnapped by the taliban, who are in fact radical muslims, so the "Islamic" part of your label is correct, and they practice a stringent strain of islam that is abhorrent to many of us westerners. I'm not sure we know the circumstances of the kidnapping...perhaps you have some details to share?
However, given that the "Islamic" label sticks, I rather doubt that the taliban can be considered fascists, even taking into account the wide range of definitions of the term "fascist". Now as to whether they are terrorists, that too is an open question. They weren't terrorists until we started shooting at them, although they should be severely criticized for allowing bin Laden and his cohorts to set up shop in Afghanistan, no doubt because they identified with his goal of keeping all those infidels from interfering with islamic countries. Are they now terrorists? It's a little hard to tell, since the terrorism would be somewhat masked by the fact that they're shooting back at us for invading their country and killing a bunch of them.
Re: When a hostage dies in a rescue attempt... the Blame Game - Dennis S - 10-11-2010
Black Tea wrote:
Let's all just agree that it was the fault of the Islamic fascist terrorists who took her captive.
Anyone who uses the word "fascist" with "Islamo" or "Islamic" is an uneducated fool.
Re: When a hostage dies in a rescue attempt... the Blame Game - mick e - 10-12-2010
Yeah - Pam Geller called - she wants her idiocy back.
Re: When a hostage dies in a rescue attempt... the Blame Game - Black Tea - 10-12-2010
Dennis wrote:
Anyone who uses the word "fascist" with "Islamo" or "Islamic" is an uneducated fool.
I agree that Christopher Hitchens can be an idiot, but here I agree with him:
The argument that the Taliban is fascist: (This argument applies not just to the Taliban, but to various other versions of virulent Islamic fundamentalism.)
1) Its horrendously retrograde treatment of women. Nazism, too, preyed on masculine gender insecurity by invoking a hyper-masculine ideology, emphasizing purity, cruelty, military valor, etc.
2) Its peculiar nature as a modern mass movement energized by an atavistic ideology. The Nazi ideology of racial purity—though hardly foreign to Western culture—was retrograde by then current Western standards, just As the Islamic fundamentalist ideology - while hardly foreign to Western Culture—is retrograde by our current standards. In both cases, the movements appeal to prejudices that flourish under conditions of extreme social and economic insecurity, and hence gain a mass following.
3) It has been funded by the wealthy as a mass movement capable of destroying the progressive Left elements. Hitchens argues that Saudi Arabia (which, incidentally, is refusing to cooperate with the investigation of the Sept 11 hijackers, most of whom were Saudis) has poured money into radical fundamentalist organizations and schools around the world—including Palestinian organizations, where it has done poisonous damage. The U.S. has been ambivalent. The first great outpouring of Islamic fundamentalism was the Iranian Revolution, which hated the U.S. On the other hand, the fundamentalists destroyed the Left, aided the Reagan Administration's war against the Sandinistas, and—a different branch—waged a holy war against the Russians in Afganistan.
4) Like Nazism, Islamic fundamentalism sometimes bites the hand the feeds it. It takes on a life of its own. Hitler led Germany to destruction, against the wishes of his wealthy backers. Bin Laden now hates the Saudi government.
5) Like Nazism, Islamic fundamentalism has an expansionary ideology, but no coherent economic policy for dealing with real problems of the people over which it rules. Hitchens claims that the Taliban was seriously involved in an effort to infiltrate the Pakistan military and eventually take control of that country too - which, incidentally, has nuclear weapons. Islamic fundamentalism sees itself spreading eastward through Indonesia and the southern Philippines, southward into north Africa, including northern Nigeria and of course westward into other regions of the Middle East. Like European fascism, its ideology is transnational, and appeals to those suffering the insecurities of modernity, particularly young men of the middle classes. (It has not gone unobserved that the Sept 11 terrorists were not poor.)
6) Like European fascism, Islamic fundamentalism promises law and order, and delivers. However, although initially welcomed by large segments of the population, its repressive apparatus generates increasing discontent. Hence, the struggle in Iran to roll back the power of the mullahs. Hence the sense of liberation that so many seem to feel in Afganistan, now that the Taliban has fled. (It may well be that the Afganis hated the Taliban more than the U.S. bombs. Certainly many Italians welcomed the allied “invaders.”)
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27e/817.html
Re: When a hostage dies in a rescue attempt... the Blame Game - Ted King - 10-12-2010
Argument that an orange is an apple (this argument applies not to just to oranges, but also to some other forms of fruits like apples):
1. Like an apple, an orange grows on trees.
2. Like an apple, an orange starts out as a flower.
3. Like an apple, an orange develops after an alien species performs a bizarre sexual function.
4. Like an apple, an orange has seeds arranged in a ring around the center.
5. Like an apple, an orange has a skin that covers a fleshy middle layer that other alien species like to ingest.
So oranges are apples. And so are pears. And so are lemons.
It's not hard to make an argument by analogy (if you are willing to accept analogies as arguments) by focusing exclusively on the aspects you wish to use to draw the parallels and ignoring glaring fundamental differences (as in the case of apples and oranges, ignoring things like genetics, taste and texture). In the case of the analogy of Islamic fundamentalism to fascism, a couple of glaring fundamental differences being that fascism is primarily an economic and nationalistic philosophy and Islamic fundamentalism is not.
"Virulent" Islamic fundamentalism can be shown to be distasteful enough to most people without resorting to a lame argument by analogy that it is fascist.
Re: When a hostage dies in a rescue attempt... the Blame Game - Grace62 - 10-12-2010
$tevie wrote:
I didn't say I'm against investigating it. But I am sort of against sitting around speculating as to whether someone screwed things up. Why assume the worst?
For Norgrove's family the worst has already happened. They deserve to know the facts, and so do we. I didn't assume anything, but given the very high number of friendly fire deaths to date in Iraq and Afghanistan it's not unreasonable to ask a lot of questions.
"The US forces placed their own lives in danger. General Petraeus has told me they are deeply dismayed at the outcome. I want to thank them for their courage," he (Cameron) said, adding: "We have to now have this investigation to find out what happened and if bad mistakes were made."