+- MacResource (https://forums.macresource.com)
+-- Forum: My Category (https://forums.macresource.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: 'Friendly' Political Ranting (https://forums.macresource.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Thread: What is the evidence that trickle down economics actually works? (/showthread.php?tid=116867)
Re: What is the evidence that trickle down economics actually works? - john dough - 05-12-2011
Facts are the best troll disinfectant known. Thanks Grace and rank.
Re: What is the evidence that trickle down economics actually works? - $tevie - 05-12-2011
rankandfile wrote:Those 1960s non-redundant bridges that were all the rage to talk about after the bridge collapse in Minnesota in 2007 are all still non-redundant and all still ticking time bombs. I can't for the life of me figure out how that can't translate into large projects that will be profitable for the contractors and create jobs for any qualified folks who are currently unemployed.
There has never been a better time or need in my lifetime to invest in our infrastructure which has deteriorated so badly. We have depreciated it beyond safety in many cases. It's an investment in the future.
Re: What is the evidence that trickle down economics actually works? - Grace62 - 05-12-2011
rankandfile wrote:
There are a number of other areas in which I believe we should invest, but I don't have time right now to flesh it out. I'll just add one more example: This is the best time since the end of WW II to make major investments in critical areas of our educational system. We practically drag bottom in the industrialized world in literacy.
We could transform this country. Why not?
Thanks for that. I think we WILL transform this country. I see it happening in small ways all around me. Americans got very discouraged that the economy did not turn around as quickly as hoped after Obama's election. The bean counters have determined that we hit the bottom of this recession in June of 2009. With unemployment the lagging indicator, we've got a ways to go before that returns to healthy. And as you said the jobs that have been created are relatively low paying compared with what was lost.
Economic indicators are ticking up, and even though high gas prices aren't helping, people are starting to spend again and use credit again. I expect all indicators will look better by next fall. Obama will be re-elected, and the Tea Party agenda that arose from fear and despair will have not only cooled but largely evaporated. Boehner's congress already has not done any of the things they promised: health care reform will stay, the debt ceiling will be raised, spending won't be slashed more than it already has been, and in fact will start to increase again, helped along by the need to spend significantly less on our middle eastern adventures.
This will propel us to make those investments in our own country that are, as you say, so desperately needed.
Re: What is the evidence that trickle down economics actually works? - john dough - 05-12-2011
No surprise that when the "trickle down" lies bubble up, that they are always dealt with the same way. There should be a MRF wiki that has facts laid out for
Re: What is the evidence that trickle down economics actually works? - freeradical - 05-13-2011
Tax cuts do grow the GDP. This model is still taught in entry level macro courses.
Just because this benefits the wealthier more than people at lower points on the economic food chain is besides the point. If you want to grow the middle class, which is a very good thing, you need to come up with a real plan to make this happen. After WWII, returning vets had the GI bill etc. which did grow the middle class substantially. Of course it also helped that we had the only economy left standing after the war so we had no economic competitors. I have yet to see any real plan from any politician that addresses exactly how we're going to help out the middle class. Instead we have nonsense where the Federal Government is guaranteeing $729,000 mortgages etc.
The real scoop on the 90's. Every other decade can "boast" a statistic. The 90's claim to fame was the go go stock market.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/net/20000301/cover.pdf
Re: What is the evidence that trickle down economics actually works? - Mac1337 - 05-13-2011
Grace62 wrote:
"....Contrast this wishful thinking with Demand Side economics. Demand Side Economics, says that if taxes are to be cut, they should go to those who earn the least amount of money.
Proof that all you can come up with is to regurgitate money, not grow it. So what that lower income people spend the money. It is not your money. People are not wards of state so you can grab their money for the "greater good". Chevron's CEO said it best today. People do not want shared sacrifice. They want shared prosperity. Alas, you have no clue to bring it about.
Re: What is the evidence that trickle down economics actually works? - rankandfile - 05-13-2011
freeradical wrote:
Tax cuts do grow the GDP. This model is still taught in entry level macro courses.
Just because this benefits the wealthier more than people at lower points on the economic food chain is besides the point. If you want to grow the middle class, which is a very good thing, you need to come up with a real plan to make this happen. After WWII, returning vets had the GI bill etc. which did grow the middle class substantially. Of course it also helped that we had the only economy left standing after the war so we had no economic competitors. I have yet to see any real plan from any politician that addresses exactly how we're going to help out the middle class. Instead we have nonsense where the Federal Government is guaranteeing $729,000 mortgages etc.
The real scoop on the 90's. Every other decade can "boast" a statistic. The 90's claim to fame was the go go stock market.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/net/20000301/cover.pdf
The chart you cite shows the opposite of what you're saying.
For example, tax rates declined from the 1960's through the 1990's. The GDP rate of growth went DOWN.
As for what's taught in basic macro classes, there is a dispute about that within the economic profession. The vast majority of economists DON'T agree with that assessment. The evidence over the years, as your chart shows, doesn't support tax cuts growing GDP.
Re: What is the evidence that trickle down economics actually works? - Grace62 - 05-13-2011
freeradical: I see you left out W's decade. Can't say that I blame you. If you are interested in supporting the middle class, you left out the two most significant economic indicators: real wages, and retail spending.
Let's put aside Reagan v. Clinton v. W because it's so much more complicated than partisan politics, AND it started well before Reagan.
Helping the middle class and why it hasn't been working since the 1960's...
Real wages are stagnant. As worker rights have steadily eroded for the past 30 years, there's been little incentive for business to pay more. But they need customers, so the answer was easy credit. 70% of US GDP is consumer spending. Why anyone thought we could keep borrowing more and more and never earn more...I don't know. Then, the Wall Street bubble bursts, and big banks get their debts written off, but individuals don't. And the easy credit is gone for both individuals and the small businesses that do the most hiring, at least for now. Won't likely come back to what it was in the '00's.
So how to help the middle class?
*invest in our own country: education, infrastructure
*support small business and entrepreneurship
*keep our tax system progressive and fair
*continue to work on a healthcare system that is sustainable
*keep our social contracts healthy
*be ready for the growth that's coming in the next decade and that will demand many workers: make it easier for immigrants who have grown up in the US to go to college and to become citizens
*protect the environment so that people can live and work in our cities
*make businesses accountable partners with government and labor, start to reverse the banana republic trend.
It's all doable.
Re: What is the evidence that trickle down economics actually works? - Dennis S - 05-13-2011
Dakota wrote:
[quote=Grace62]
"....Contrast this wishful thinking with Demand Side economics. Demand Side Economics, says that if taxes are to be cut, they should go to those who earn the least amount of money.
Proof that all you can come up with is to regurgitate money, not grow it. So what that lower income people spend the money. It is not your money. People are not wards of state so you can grab their money for the "greater good". Chevron's CEO said it best today. People do not want shared sacrifice. They want shared prosperity. Alas, you have no clue to bring it about.
Do you enjoy being screwed? Do you like your taxes going to people who already make more money than everyone else when they did nothing to deserve the money?
You big dummy.
Re: What is the evidence that trickle down economics actually works? - Mac1337 - 05-13-2011
Only dummies think if somebody else's taxes go up theirs will come down. Wait! May be that is true. Half the people don't pay taxes. How do I join the free ride?