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+--- Thread: IRS: Nearly 1,500 millionaires paid no federal income tax in 2009 (/showthread.php?tid=121612)
Re: IRS: Nearly 1,500 millionaires paid no federal income tax in 2009 - Mac1337 - 08-09-2011
cbelt3, as noble the flat tax formula is, this country has been carried on the shoulders of the rich for so long that I don't see how you can generate the same tax revenue. Besides, how would libs channel you into eating, breathing and driving what they want.
Re: IRS: Nearly 1,500 millionaires paid no federal income tax in 2009 - john dough - 08-09-2011
I would love to simplify the tax code. Make X amount of money, pay 10% of X in taxes. I would be GLAD to lose my deductions if I knew that others would be losing theirs, and theirs are FAR more lucrative than mine. Explain what is wrong with that? I have worked with accountants that have said (without pointing out client names) that several high-worth clients take home 90+% of all revenues that they generate. Explain to me how that works as I would LOVE to make that. Even with my deductions for working for myself, my best year, the lowest I paid was about 25% in tax, AFTER deductions, and I made less than 20% of what these folk brought in. In sheer volume, I am paying close to what they pay, yet they make 300K more than I do. Pure bullsh!t, yet these are the job-creation class that seems to be NOT creating jobs, even with the Bush tax breaks. Another right-wing lie.
If someone is compensated, say, 150K, they should pay the same percentage of how much money they get, regardless of what it is called (salary, income, profit, compensation, earnings, whatever) as everyone else. PERIOD. Just because they are a lawyer or banker or professional athlete does not mean squat.
BTW, the country is NOT being carried on the shoulders of the rich. The load is being shouldered, more and more, by the middle class and poor. But you would not know that as you get your "news" from idiots that want you to ignore all but the rich, which you are too happy to do.
Dakota, if this is not an act, you sure come across as a effing moron.
Re: IRS: Nearly 1,500 millionaires paid no federal income tax in 2009 - OWC Jamie - 08-09-2011
So, if I'm a millionaire based on assets and holdings and I had no income, I'm in that group ?
The article makes a bunch of stabs into the dark abyss of statistics and leaves the bleeding rivers to the reader to apparently assume the "rich" pay no taxes when in fact they are using loopholes to help the poor via charity.
Sure sounds like taxes to me.
as long as that charity is real .
Re: IRS: Nearly 1,500 millionaires paid no federal income tax in 2009 - Ted King - 08-09-2011
cbelt3 wrote:
I think if most Americans would Do. The. Math. they would find out that it will mean they will pay less overall, and have less to worry about.
Show me the math. I don't believe it, but if you show me the math, then I'll believe it.
Even if it does show that a majority of Americans would be paying less, that means somebody would have to be paying more. Who is that? Mostly wealthy, or mostly poor? I guessing mostly poor, but if you can show me in the math that it's the wealthy who will pay more, then I'll believe it.
What I'd really like to see is a chart or graph! that shows how much more or less each decile group of income earners would pay in a no-deduction, flat tax compared to what we have now. If it showed what you say it will show, then I'll believe you.
It seems as though one of the primary rationales for going with a flat tax is to simplify the tax system, but almost all of the simplification comes from the "getting-rid-of -the-deductions" part of the proposal, not the "flat" part. Having no deductions and a progressive stepped marginal rate system is essentially as simple - it would take a computer about a nanosecond longer to compute the taxes for someone in a stepped tax system over a flat tax system.
So simplification isn't enough justification to go with a flat tax over a stepped system. I suspect that what underlies most people's thinking in preferring a flat tax is that it is more fair. What could be more fair than everyone paying an equal percent of what the make? Well... wouldn't it more fair for everyone to pay exactly the same amount of money in taxes, period? Just take the amount of money needed to run the government and divide that equally amongst every who makes money. What could be more fair than that? Well... why should people who aren't making any money not have to pay any taxes? So the most fair thing would be to take the amount of money needed to run the government and divide by everyone who lives under the jurisdiction of the government and everyone pays that much. What could be fairer than that? Well... some people use the government more than others, so why should people who use the government less have to pay as much as someone who uses it more? Wouldn't it be most fair to have a government paid fore without taxes at all - just go completely to a fee system, and the government has to compete with private companies for the services. What could be more fair than that? Well... if you are an Ayn Rand fan, you probably don't think there is anything more fair than that.
If you are going to claim that one system of taxation is more fair than another, you need to give the moral justification for it because "fair" is always ultimately a moral judgment. So what is the moral justification for a flat tax with no deductions? Why is that more fair than a progressive stepped system with no deductions? Does that justification involve the assumption that as economic activity happens the income people end up with is the income they deserve? If so, I don't buy it.
Re: IRS: Nearly 1,500 millionaires paid no federal income tax in 2009 - john dough - 08-09-2011
billb wrote:
The article makes a bunch of stabs into the dark abyss of statistics and leaves the bleeding rivers to the reader to apparently assume the "rich" pay no taxes when in fact they are using loopholes to help the poor via charity.
No one said that all rich are paying no income taxes, just this group that is noted. The right like to come up with statistics of (iirc) 49% of people pay no income tax, but what they don't say is that they pay taxes, proportionate to their income, higher than any other group in society. The wealthy, on average, pay less in TOTAL tax (percentage-wise) than any other group, but the Fox News story omitted that nugget.
The more that people make in the US (however you label that money landing in their possession: income, earnings, compensation, etc.), the more vehicles they have to keep this money out of the hands of the tax man. The wealthy have schemes (for lack of a better word) that allow them to shuffle their money in ways that the average person does not and because of this, they can keep more of what comes their way.
It is still interesting to me that people rush to these threads to protect the groups that they are NOT part of. I will be honest: I would love to have a money "problem" of too much cash. Just seems funny that when these topics come up (when news comes out that individuals making a lot of money paying less tax than people making far less) there is a rush to defend said folks.
Re: IRS: Nearly 1,500 millionaires paid no federal income tax in 2009 - Mac1337 - 08-09-2011
What are these loopholes you are talking about and why can't you name a few? What is so secret about it? Name a few scenarios where someone can take home 90% of their income. I'd like to know too.
Re: IRS: Nearly 1,500 millionaires paid no federal income tax in 2009 - Lux Interior - 08-09-2011
You little people keep right on paying your taxes.
Re: IRS: Nearly 1,500 millionaires paid no federal income tax in 2009 - Grace62 - 08-09-2011
Even the great acolytes of the flat tax: Steve Forbes, FreedomWorks, the Heritage Foundation, etc., include standard deductions, marital status, and deductions for children. The rate they use is 17%. Some also consider a minimum income amount below which you are not taxed at all, or taxed at a lower rate.
So even among its most ardent and true fans, the realities set in.
Here's the FreedomWorks "flat tax" calculator. I ran my numbers and got a tax amount about 40% higher than what I pay now.
I'll take the deductions and spend a few hours with the 1040, thanks anyway.
http://www.freedomworks.org/flattax/index.php
Re: IRS: Nearly 1,500 millionaires paid no federal income tax in 2009 - john dough - 08-09-2011
If I knew how to shelter that kind of money, do you think I would be on this forum now? The people I know that pull down that kind of money to get these breaks have groups in place to get them what they have.
Here is an example of a loophole: buying yachts (as if anyone is thinking about that here). When buying a boat, the seller goes out to international waters with the buyer and signs all of the papers there. Since they sell the ship outside of the US, it is not subject to US tax on the sale; if you know the prices of boats, the tax savings can run to the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Why do you think that so many ships are registered in the Caribbean?
It is not that they are secretive, just that you have to have money to make money.
Re: IRS: Nearly 1,500 millionaires paid no federal income tax in 2009 - $tevie - 08-09-2011
I have no doubt that it would be most fabulous if we could blow up the tax codes and start clean. But I have no interest in a tax code whose primary function is to make filing my taxes so easy that a child can do it. I think taxes are serious enough to require at least a modicum of thought and effort on our part.