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+--- Thread: Still don't think kids are addicted to their phones? (/showthread.php?tid=277180)
Re: Still don't think kids are addicted to their phones? - PeterB - 05-19-2023
Tiangou wrote:
If I warn you that I'm going to hit you, and then if I go ahead and hit you, that's still a battery.
And schools have special duties of care of children.
Simply fulfilling a legal obligation to attend school does not represent consent to reckless behavior on the part of teachers.
All of that is true, but there's no indication that he hit the student or took the phone away against school policies.
Some more background here:
(longer videos, showing the inside of the classroom before he was pepper sprayed)
https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/138zvwa/girl_pepper_sprays_teacher_because_he_took_her/#
https://atlantablackstar.com/2023/05/09/nashville-student-who-pepper-sprayed-teacher-faces-public-calls-for-her-expulsion-as-school-remains-mum-about-her-discipline/
(teacher speaks out after the incident)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnR_013lArk
... so, to me, it basically boils down to whether the school has a cell phone policy in writing in a student handbook or syllabus, what it is, and if it says that the cell phones can be confiscated. If they can, I don't see that the student has a leg to stand on.
Re: Still don't think kids are addicted to their phones? - Tiangou - 05-19-2023
PeterB wrote:
All of that is true, but there's no indication that he hit the student or took the phone away against school policies.
Doesn't matter whether he hit the student.
Doesn't matter what the school policies are if he broke the law.
First hit (so to speak), just to give you a typical legal definition:
https://www.fatemilaw.com/assault.html
Assault is the attempted touching of a person without his or her consent, including under those circumstances where the person feels fearful that a touching will occur. Battery is the actual, offensive touching of another person without his or her consent.
Re: Still don't think kids are addicted to their phones? - PeterB - 05-19-2023
Tiangou wrote:
[quote=PeterB]
All of that is true, but there's no indication that he hit the student or took the phone away against school policies.
Doesn't matter whether he hit the student.
Doesn't matter what the school policies are if he broke the law.
First hit (so to speak), just to give you a typical legal definition:
https://www.fatemilaw.com/assault.html
Assault is the attempted touching of a person without his or her consent, including under those circumstances where the person feels fearful that a touching will occur. Battery is the actual, offensive touching of another person without his or her consent.
Right, but where we disagree is whether or not consent was given. If the student or their parents signed off on a student conduct / cell phone policy where it was clearly stated that the phone could be confiscated, then taking the phone away isn't either assault or battery. If you want to argue that signing off on the school policy makes no difference to consent, then we might as well not have ANY rules in schools -- let students do whatever the heck they want, with no consequences whatsoever.
I don't see any evidence here that he has broken the law, and further, I find it deeply disturbing that it seems you're trying to blame the teacher, without regard to the fact that he was clearly and undeniably assaulted by the student. Further, the pepper spray could be considered a weapon, which she probably shouldn't have had in the school in the first place.
Re: Still don't think kids are addicted to their phones? - Blankity Blank - 05-19-2023
Tiangou wrote:
[quote=PeterB]
All of that is true, but there's no indication that he hit the student or took the phone away against school policies.
Doesn't matter whether he hit the student.
Doesn't matter what the school policies are if he broke the law.
First hit (so to speak), just to give you a typical legal definition:
https://www.fatemilaw.com/assault.html
Assault is the attempted touching of a person without his or her consent, including under those circumstances where the person feels fearful that a touching will occur. Battery is the actual, offensive touching of another person without his or her consent.
I’m curious how far down the parsing of terms goes.
the attempted touching of a person without his or her consent
If I grab the phone your are holding, touching only the phone, still assault?
…the person feels fearful that a touching will occur.
Any “touch” or the “offensive touching” next mentioned?
Battery is the actual, offensive touching of another person without his or her consent.
Does “offensive” imply some malice or intent to harm? If so, is there also some ‘reasonable person’ threshold for fearing an ‘offensive touch’ in the context of the situation at hand?
It seems there are both instances of literalism and applied context used in litigation. I wonder which carries the day most often?
Re: Still don't think kids are addicted to their phones? - Tiangou - 05-19-2023
https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/is-it-illegal-to-take-someone-s-phone-away-from-th-3017998.html
Re: Still don't think kids are addicted to their phones? - PeterB - 05-19-2023
Tiangou wrote:
https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/is-it-illegal-to-take-someone-s-phone-away-from-th-3017998.html
https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/can-teachers-take-your-phone/
https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/can-a-school-take-my-kids-cell-phone/
https://www.lovetoknow.com/parenting/teens/is-it-legal-schools-confiscate-cell-phones
https://www.riaclu.org/en/know-your-rights/know-your-rights-students-technology#:~:text=If%20you%20violated%20school%20policy,if%20they%20lawfully%20confiscate%20it
Re: Still don't think kids are addicted to their phones? - kj - 05-19-2023
Tiangou wrote:
If I warn you that I'm going to hit you, and then if I go ahead and hit you, that's still a battery.
And schools have special duties of care of children.
Simply fulfilling a legal obligation to attend school does not represent consent to reckless behavior on the part of teachers.
You don't have to touch someone to take their phone. I do it all the time with zero physical contact.
Re: Still don't think kids are addicted to their phones? - Tiangou - 05-19-2023
kj wrote:
[quote=Tiangou]
If I warn you that I'm going to hit you, and then if I go ahead and hit you, that's still a battery.
And schools have special duties of care of children.
Simply fulfilling a legal obligation to attend school does not represent consent to reckless behavior on the part of teachers.
You don't have to touch someone to take their phone. I do it all the time with zero physical contact.
Go up a few posts to my link. Non-consensual touching extends to touching items that a person is holding.
Think about it: Otherwise you'd have a legal defense that when you punched a random person at the supermarket, you did so in the gut, which was protected by a shirt.
And the links in Peter's response a couple of posts above have nothing to do with the assault and battery. From one of these links:
Of course, school cell phone policies likely do have limitations. Can schools take cell phones from students? Probably, but they need to make sure they're not running afoul of a student's rights.
Re: Still don't think kids are addicted to their phones? - PeterB - 05-19-2023
Tiangou wrote:
[quote=kj]
[quote=Tiangou]
If I warn you that I'm going to hit you, and then if I go ahead and hit you, that's still a battery.
And schools have special duties of care of children.
Simply fulfilling a legal obligation to attend school does not represent consent to reckless behavior on the part of teachers.
You don't have to touch someone to take their phone. I do it all the time with zero physical contact.
Go up a few posts to my link. Non-consensual touching extends to touching items that a person is holding.
Think about it: Otherwise you'd have a legal defense that when you punched a random person at the supermarket, you did so in the gut, which was protected by a shirt.
And the links in Peter's response a couple of posts above have nothing to do with the assault and battery. From one of these links:
Of course, school cell phone policies likely do have limitations. Can schools take cell phones from students? Probably, but they need to make sure they're not running afoul of a student's rights.
Quoting out of context. The rights they are referring to are not about assault and battery. They're (mostly) referring to that the school cannot rummage through the contents of the student's phone without legitimate reason. All the links I posted point out that the school and teachers DO have the right to confiscate the student's phone, at least temporarily. You are correct that if the teacher were to physically assault the student in the process of taking the phone, that would be illegal. But the mere act of taking the phone doesn't constitute either assault or battery, if the school's policy is that the phone can be confiscated. Otherwise, any time a teacher or administrator were to take a phone, that would be assault or battery, which is obviously not the case.
Re: Still don't think kids are addicted to their phones? - Tiangou - 05-20-2023
PeterB wrote: But the mere act of taking the phone doesn't constitute either assault or battery, if the school's policy is that the phone can be confiscated. Otherwise, any time a teacher or administrator were to take a phone, that would be assault or battery, which is obviously not the case.
It's assault and battery if the teacher grabs it from the student. Having a policy in place that permits that is unlawful. A school board can't simply say "we can break any law we want so long as we have a written policy in advance that allows us to do so."
...It's not assault and battery if the teacher has a bin for phones at his/her desk and requires that all students drop off their phones at the beginning of class, or demands that all students power-off their phones before class, or stands in front of a misbehaving student and demands the phone from them. It's not assault and battery if the teacher sends an uncooperative student to the principal's office for punishment. These are potential solutions that do not involve violence.