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+--- Thread: What would convince you to buy an electric car? (/showthread.php?tid=123460)
Re: What would convince you to buy an electric car? - AllGold - 09-11-2011
BernDog wrote:
[quote=AllGold]
Even electricity generated from 100% coal on a large scale is more efficient and less polluting than burning gasoline.
Unfortunately, I don't have anything handy to cite on the subject and I don't expect or even want you to take my word for it any more than I want you to take someone's word for it who says otherwise.
My gut tells me that producing power on a large scale has to be more efficient than separate tiny power plants in each vehicle (like we have now). But, I do know there is some power loss in converting all those electrons and moving them long distances, as well as in charging/discharging a battery, so... ?
Sure, but it's not like burning gasoline for locomotion is 100% efficient either.
Re: What would convince you to buy an electric car? - BernDog - 09-11-2011
AllGold wrote:
[quote=BernDog]
[quote=AllGold]
Even electricity generated from 100% coal on a large scale is more efficient and less polluting than burning gasoline.
Unfortunately, I don't have anything handy to cite on the subject and I don't expect or even want you to take my word for it any more than I want you to take someone's word for it who says otherwise.
My gut tells me that producing power on a large scale has to be more efficient than separate tiny power plants in each vehicle (like we have now). But, I do know there is some power loss in converting all those electrons and moving them long distances, as well as in charging/discharging a battery, so... ?
Sure, but it's not like burning gasoline for locomotion is 100% efficient either.
No kidding! I just mean that there is a trade off when using the power grid that isn't there when you produce the power locally (gasoline engine). As I said, I'm not an expert in these things, but it's still a small (sometimes major) talking-point in the argument. I can't see how the trade-off puts the efficiency in favor of all these little power plants rolling around, though.
Re: What would convince you to buy an electric car? - Filliam H. Muffman - 09-11-2011
DP wrote:
The biggest problem tho is pollution. In many parts of the country you put more pollution in the air by charging an electric car than burning gasoline.
Do you have any statistics or calculations to back that up? The two might be close in a city that gets electricity only from coal and comparing the electric car to a new hybrid.
Re: What would convince you to buy an electric car? - Racer X - 09-11-2011
most large power plants burning some form of fossil fuel are @60% efficient. A typical modern gasoline engine in a car is a small fraction of that. A modern diesel is a percent or two better.
Re: What would convince you to buy an electric car? - freeradical - 09-11-2011
It's not a question about whether swapping out batteries is technically feasible, it's about the chicken and the egg.
It's far easier to implement natural gas distribution at fuel stations, but it hasn't caught on enough to the point where the average consumer would consider natural gas as a fuel. There just aren't enough natural gas fueling stations. If you're taking a long trip with a natural gas vehicle, you would have to plan ahead to find out where you can get fuel, and probably go out of your way to get that fuel.
Re: What would convince you to buy an electric car? - Ted King - 09-11-2011
AllGold wrote:
Even electricity generated from 100% coal on a large scale is more efficient and less polluting than burning gasoline.
Unfortunately, I don't have anything handy to cite on the subject and I don't expect or even want you to take my word for it any more than I want you to take someone's word for it who says otherwise.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-dirty-truth-about-plug-in-hybrids
Unfortunately, you have to pay for a subscription to see the whole article (I get the magazine every month - that's how I knew about this article). But I did find another link that goes has a bit more:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=interactive-plug-in-hybrids
Also, according to Scientific American, it's cheaper to run a car on from plug-in electricity than gasoline:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=electric-cars-cost-per-charge
When you compare battery to gasoline power, electricity wins hands down. A 2007 study by the non-profit Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) calculated that powering a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) would cost the equivalent of roughly 75 cents per gallon of gasoline—a price not seen at the pump for 30 years.
The calculation was made using an average cost of electricity of 8.5 cents per kilowatt hour and the estimated distance the car would travel on one charge, versus a car that gets 25 miles per gallon and is powered by $3 per gallon gasoline. Change any of those variables and the relative costs change. For example, substituting a car that gets 50 miles per gallon doubles the comparative electrical cost (though it still works out much cheaper than gasoline). On the other hand, in some areas where wind or hydropower is wasted at night—just when the PHEV would be charging—the utility might drop the kilowatt hour cost to two to three cents, making the charge much less costly.
Re: What would convince you to buy an electric car? - BernDog - 09-11-2011
freeradical wrote:
It's not a question about whether swapping out batteries is technically feasible, it's about the chicken and the egg.
It's far easier to implement natural gas distribution at fuel stations, but it hasn't caught on enough to the point where the average consumer would consider natural gas as a fuel. There just aren't enough natural gas fueling stations. If you're taking a long trip with a natural gas vehicle, you would have to plan ahead to find out where you can get fuel, and probably go out of your way to get that fuel.
Good point about the chicken vs. egg thing. With portable fuel (natural gas) what you say is a major issue. With batteries, even removable batteries could still be charged in-car at home (which would still be cheaper because you wouldn't have the charging station overhead). But as it caught on enough, there would be enough of a market to make swap stations financially feasible...as long as the charge at home cars already had universal batteries in them. That would eliminate the range issues with a standard electric car. There would not need to be as many of these swap stations as there are gas stations now, because most people would still charge at home, as long as their regular commute didn't go over the vehicle range. You'd only need to do a swap when self-charging wasn't convenient/possible, or when you're going on a longer trip. This is why I said the industry needs to get on this now if it is ever to be an option.
Same as the argument about not switching over to electric now, because you're still burning fuel to make electricity. The answer I give on that is still, "Yeah, for now."
Re: What would convince you to buy an electric car? - Black - 09-11-2011
BernDog wrote:
[quote=Black]
[quote=freeradical]
If batteries were being swapped out at swap stations, there would have to be room on site for both fresh and discharged batteries, and it would take a lot of work to get old batteries sent to some location to get recharged, and to receive fresh batteries. The trucks that did this distribution would of course br diesel powered.
Another option would be to recharge the batteries at the swap stations, but that again would take enormous amounts of space, and be hugely labor intensive.
And we'd have piles of spent batteries dumped everywhere in addition to the piles of tires and such we already have. This is a solution for a more environmentally responsible populous.
Transporting to recharging stations? That's just silly. All gas stations already have electrical service (yes it'd probably have to be beefed up). Gas stations also all already have plenty of space underground. That's where the gas tanks are now. Labor intensive? Yeah. We'd go back to stations being full service, like they used to be. Prices on that end would go up because you'd have to pay the staff (or build the robots to do it all automatically). Huge amounts of dumped batteries? Not talking about swapping out evereadys in a flashlight. The batteries would have the same lifespan/mileage potential whether they're being cycled from one car to another or if they're sitting in the same vehicle the whole time. This idea doesn't solve this problem of expended batteries, but it doesn't make it any worse either.
Was just reacting to the preceding suggestion, not making a judgment as to its technical practicality.
If batteries were swappable they'd have to be modular since they'd be too big/unwieldy otherwise. so you'd have a bunch of smaller cells instead of one big one.
Re: What would convince you to buy an electric car? - Black - 09-11-2011
BernDog wrote:
[quote=Ted King]
If you live in a region where all or most of the electricity is generated in coal fired plants, then there is probably little to no environmental advantage in having an all-electric car.
Except the system would already be in place for when that coal power plant is decommissioned (hopefully) in favor of a better alternative. At worst, we're at least trading gasoline for coal, which is 100% domestic. As for efficiencies and pollution potential, not my area of expertise.
I assume (hope?) that Ted's statement was meant as irony.
Re: What would convince you to buy an electric car? - Ted King - 09-11-2011
BernDog wrote:
[quote=freeradical]
It's not a question about whether swapping out batteries is technically feasible, it's about the chicken and the egg.
It's far easier to implement natural gas distribution at fuel stations, but it hasn't caught on enough to the point where the average consumer would consider natural gas as a fuel. There just aren't enough natural gas fueling stations. If you're taking a long trip with a natural gas vehicle, you would have to plan ahead to find out where you can get fuel, and probably go out of your way to get that fuel.
Good point about the chicken vs. egg thing. With portable fuel (natural gas) what you say is a major issue. With batteries, even removable batteries could still be charged in-car at home (which would still be cheaper because you wouldn't have the charging station overhead). But as it caught on enough, there would be enough of a market to make swap stations financially feasible...as long as the charge at home cars already had universal batteries in them. That would eliminate the range issues with a standard electric car. There would not need to be as many of these swap stations as there are gas stations now, because most people would still charge at home, as long as their regular commute didn't go over the vehicle range. You'd only need to do a swap when self-charging wasn't convenient/possible, or when you're going on a longer trip. This is why I said the industry needs to get on this now if it is ever to be an option.
Same as the argument about not switching over to electric now, because you're still burning fuel to make electricity. The answer I give on that is still, "Yeah, for now."
If they can get the price down, I think cars like the Chevy Volt are a good way to go. You can charge it at home and it will run on the charge stored in the batteries until the batteries get low, then it switches on a little on-board gasoline engine that doesn't directly power the car, instead it runs at a (very efficient - economical) steady rate to power a generator that charges the batteries. So you end up running only on plug-in electrical power for all your short trips (and for many people that is the bulk of their trips), but the little gasoline motor can keep the car going on longer trips.