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+--- Thread: ‘ Tesla lost its edge — and Elon Musk has no one but himself to blame ‘ (/showthread.php?tid=275137)
Re: ‘ Tesla lost its edge — and Elon Musk has no one but himself to blame ‘ - Ombligo - 02-27-2023
The Tesla design may be ahead of some makes but it is dated - can you tell a 2017 model from the latest one?
Re: ‘ Tesla lost its edge — and Elon Musk has no one but himself to blame ‘ - Carnos Jax - 02-27-2023
I don’t think that’s the definition of dated. It’s a perceptive meaning, and therefore will differ from person to person.
Re: ‘ Tesla lost its edge — and Elon Musk has no one but himself to blame ‘ - ztirffritz - 02-27-2023
When the Model 3 was released Tesla struggled with the stuff that their competitors already figured out. On the other hand, Tesla excelled at the stuff their competitors struggled with. They designed the entire vehicle to be an open platform. They controlled the code on all the modules and could reconfigure them at will. This allowed them to recode the basic operation of subsystems with software updates delivered over the air. Competitors in contrast received preconfigured modules from suppliers and they had no idea how they worked. When it came to actually assembling the cars though, Tesla struggled. There were hundreds of different people employing dozens of different processes that may or may not have been complimentary to each other. The big difference is the process that Tesla developed for deploying production changes in-line. They make more revisions in a day than their competitors do in a month, or more. Tesla doesn’t have “model” years like competitors do. The car made on Monday may vary significantly from the product made on Thursday if someone found a better, cheaper way to do it. This drives costs down significantly and quickly while pushing margins up dramatically.
Re: ‘ Tesla lost its edge — and Elon Musk has no one but himself to blame ‘ - ztirffritz - 02-27-2023
Tesla is simultaneously an underdog and a monopoly. They’re cornering the EV market so thoroughly that competitors can’t find a path to success. By the middle of this year they’ll pass Mercedes and BMW in production volume individually, they’ll probably pass them in profits combined. They’ll be about even with Ford by next year. Every vehicle they sell is another nail in competitors’ coffins because competitors can’t compete. The story used to be that Tesla was only succeeding because they had no competition. Well, Ford took a swing for the fence and managed a single. The Mach E is OK, but it’s no Model Y and they can only manage to make about 40k of them AT A LOSS. Same for the Lightning. GM has a full count and is riding foul balls. The Bolt is an OK vehicle but no way are they making any money on them. They’re both still beholden to their ICE vehicles for profits and that’s essentially a house of cards. EU just banned ICE sales by 2035, but they’ll be done by 2030 anyway. Who’s going to spend €40k on an obsolete technology that is already a stranded asset in 2025? VW might yet be saved by the actions of Herbert Diess, despite them firing him because of his moves. VW made 500k EVs almost profitably. They’re actually in the same ballpark volume wise as Tesla, but they’re 1/3 as efficient. Tesla’s Berlin plant turns out vehicles from start to finish in 10hours. VW takes 30hours. Tesla’s Fremont factory is the most productive auto factory in North America but Tesla’s Shanghai factory makes more vehicles than Fremont, Berlin and Austin combined…for now. Combined with profits on stationary batteries rumored to be as high as 50% profit, Tesla is going to be making money faster than it can be counted. All while being less than 10% of the auto market as a whole. They’re a monopoly and an underdog simultaneously.
Re: ‘ Tesla lost its edge — and Elon Musk has no one but himself to blame ‘ - ztirffritz - 02-27-2023
That's Sandy Monroe. He absolutely eviscerated Tesla for the Model 3 they tore down. He said it was a patchwork of techniques, welds, and half-baked ideas. He acknowledged that their drive train design was years ahead of anyone else though. He later interviewed Elon and Elon admitted that the 'production hell' era vehicles were not up to snuff. Sandy offered quite a bit of constructive criticism and Tesla took a lot of it to heart. Sandy is now a vocal Tesla evangelist. He tells everyone that Tesla is in a foot race with the auto industry and they're 2/3 of the way around the track. The competitors don't even know that they're in a race yet. He still points out some small build quality issues, but it's nothing you wouldn't find on a similarly priced Chevy or Toyota. He did give Tesla a hard time about quality issues on the Model S Plaid that they tore down. For $120k he felt the build quality was not where it should be. There were gaskets around the windows that were falling out or loose and some other interior issues and the paint was mediocre. Mechanically though it was solid.
C(-)ris wrote:
[quote=Carnos Jax]
[quote=Filliam H. Muffman]
[quote=Carnos Jax]
[quote=Filliam H. Muffman]
The average person won't accept crappy build quality that some Tesla models get delivered with. They get savaged on JD Power surveys.
This is not true any longer. It's a misconception stemming from early production runs of a new model, or going further back, Tesla's early days when it was still learning how to mass manufacture cars. Even then, this quality issues were related to superficial items, not the core hardware or systems. That JD Power survey was not what you think it was.
I guess we will agree to disagree. I saw someone pointing out external fit issues in the last two months: door gaps, loose body panels, water leaks.
C(-)ris wrote: ....quality is horrendous. Many owners say the same thing.
I understand. However if y'all can recall where it is you saw that (without having to spend time digging it up), I'd love to see it. I'm trying to be as aware as I can from an investor perspective of issues. As I understood it, this isn't a problem anymore with cars coming from the newer factories. And I thought Fremont had (or at worst is currently) addressed these issues.
I remember the tear apart videos from whoever the guy is that does them. My other primary source is facebook reels of owners or repair shops.
Re: ‘ Tesla lost its edge — and Elon Musk has no one but himself to blame ‘ - kj - 02-27-2023
Filliam H. Muffman wrote:
[quote=Carnos Jax]
[quote=Filliam H. Muffman]
The average person won't accept crappy build quality that some Tesla models get delivered with. They get savaged on JD Power surveys.
This is not true any longer. It's a misconception stemming from early production runs of a new model, or going further back, Tesla's early days when it was still learning how to mass manufacture cars. Even then, this quality issues were related to superficial items, not the core hardware or systems. That JD Power survey was not what you think it was.
I guess we will agree to disagree. I saw someone pointing out external fit issues in the last two months: door gaps, loose body panels, water leaks.
Look at some of the videos of new civics and mismatched paint on body panels, body gaps, etc. It happens. I've been shopping for Teslaas for a few months now, and I'm not actually seeing the issues I expected from looking at YouTube videos. I do see the "soft paint" thing, but that's not a bad thing, just tradeoffs.
Re: ‘ Tesla lost its edge — and Elon Musk has no one but himself to blame ‘ - kj - 02-27-2023
Carnos Jax wrote:
I don’t think that’s the definition of dated. It’s a perceptive meaning, and therefore will differ from person to person.
I super tire of cars changing every year. I still think Teslas look great, and if you look at some of the classics, they have gone many years without big changes (vw beetle, early mustang, porsche 911, etc.). I don't think a car has to change radically every year. In fact, what's wrong with owning a 2017 and people not knowing it's not a new car? Little face lift things and trim updates are enough to me. The E46 I have is still a great looking car, and they made it with the same style from 1999-2006, and it sold well the whole time.
Re: ‘ Tesla lost its edge — and Elon Musk has no one but himself to blame ‘ - Carnos Jax - 02-27-2023
I’ve always felt the E46 continued to look contemporary to this day. It was my favorite 3 Series. Which model did you have? I always wish I bought a silver 330i with the M aero package upfront and manual transmission.
Re: ‘ Tesla lost its edge — and Elon Musk has no one but himself to blame ‘ - kj - 02-27-2023
Carnos Jax wrote:
[quote=Tiangou]
[quote=Carnos Jax]
I've never heard anyone say Teslas look old or dated, except occasionally here on the forum. Again I wonder if that's due to how many Teslas those people see on a daily basis?
Yeah, big city, lots of high income workers in the region. Electrics all over the place. Also, lots of big trucks like those dumb Mercedes hybrids that somehow only get only 14 miles to the gallon.
So many Teslas in the area, you can't spit without hitting one.
Hmmm, I wonder then if my impression will change as they become more common place here...
Toyotas must be REALLY dated. Actually, most are pretty ugly, but not dated in my opinion.
Re: ‘ Tesla lost its edge — and Elon Musk has no one but himself to blame ‘ - kj - 02-27-2023
Carnos Jax wrote:
I’ve always felt the E46 continued to look contemporary to this day. It was my favorite 3 Series. Which model did you have? I always wish I bought a silver 330i with the M aero package upfront and manual transmission.
Mine's just a 328i, but it still drives so nicely, I have a little bit of a relationship with it. I haven't been able to get rid of it. My brother just found a E36 M3 coupe, standard transmission, very nice and unmodified, and that is still a very nice car. I think it will hold its value really well also.
I've always wanted a e46 m3 or even the 330i ZHP. I probably should have just paid the extra when I got mine.