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+--- Thread: Gun owners commit less crime (/showthread.php?tid=285801)
Re: Gun owners commit less crime - wowzer - 03-25-2024
Smote wrote:
it is actually now 29 states.
Mexico gets the crime impetus "Over the years, President Andrés Manuel López Obrador has laid out various justifications for his “hugs, not bullets” policy of avoiding clashes with the cartels. In the past he has said “you cannot fight violence with violence,” and on other occasions he has argued the government has to address “the causes” of drug cartel violence, ascribing them to poverty or a lack of opportunities."
Wow, I stand corrected. I still remember when we crossed over to 25. Now it is the vast majority. Of course , I still have to CCW because my state isn’t a permitless carry state.
Re: Gun owners commit less crime - Mr645 - 03-25-2024
wowzer wrote:
The one thing that most anti gunners don’t know is that police are not required to assist you. What really changed my mind for guns is readings the story of Joseph Lozito. He was stabbed multiple times by a madman on the subway car. There were 2 transit police in the same compartment. The cops were trailing the psychopath who also boarded the train as Lozito. The cops knew the psycho had already killed multiple people that same day. The psycho pulled a knife and stabbed Lozito multiple times. The cops did not come to Lozito’s aid. Instead, They went into the conductors booth. Eventually, several other passengers saved Lozito from the psycho. The cops then came out of the conductors booth to arrest the killer.
The courts have ruled that the police have NO DUTY to assist you. They are not required to respond, even if you are at risk of fatality. The cops are not obligated to be your first responder. So if you believe that the police will come to rescue you, please discard that Hollywood myth. The reality is that you are expected to defend yourself.
https://nypost.com/2013/01/27/city-says-cops-had-no-duty-to-protect-subway-hero-who-subdued-killer/
Sounds similar to the Stonemason Doubles mass shooting and Uvalde. "trained and armed" police sat by as mass killers shot and killed children, as untrained teachers used chairs, their own bodies to try to protect the students. At least one teacher at Stoneman was well qualified to carry a firearm, as he is a retired US Army Ranger. For 45 minutes the armed school police officer hid while Cruz killed more and more innocent people. Uvalde, police stood down until a cop whose child was in the school ran in, forcing others to follow.
When seconds count, 911 is just minutes away, 45 minutes in some cases
Re: Gun owners commit less crime - Acer - 03-25-2024
wowzer wrote:
The one thing that most anti gunners don’t know is that police are not required to assist you. What really changed my mind for guns is readings the story of Joseph Lozito. He was stabbed multiple times by a madman on the subway car. There were 2 transit police in the same compartment. The cops were trailing the psychopath who also boarded the train as Lozito. The cops knew the psycho had already killed multiple people that same day. The psycho pulled a knife and stabbed Lozito multiple times. The cops did not come to Lozito’s aid. Instead, They went into the conductors booth. Eventually, several other passengers saved Lozito from the psycho. The cops then came out of the conductors booth to arrest the killer.
The courts have ruled that the police have NO DUTY to assist you. They are not required to respond, even if you are at risk of fatality. The cops are not obligated to be your first responder. So if you believe that the police will come to rescue you, please discard that Hollywood myth. The reality is that you are expected to defend yourself.
https://nypost.com/2013/01/27/city-says-cops-had-no-duty-to-protect-subway-hero-who-subdued-killer/
So, let's spend less on police and move more money into social services and helping the poor break the cycle. You can open carry along the way if you wish, I'll concede that.
Re: Gun owners commit less crime - Mr645 - 03-25-2024
Agreed, we need better economic and educational support for distressed communities.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sorensonimpact/2023/05/22/exploring-opportunity-zones-exciting-new-data-on-the-positive-impact-of-ozs-across-the-nation/?sh=4d3b8c7d68f0
Re: Gun owners commit less crime - Tiangou - 03-25-2024
Acer wrote:
[quote=wowzer]
The one thing that most anti gunners don’t know is that police are not required to assist you. What really changed my mind for guns is readings the story of Joseph Lozito. He was stabbed multiple times by a madman on the subway car. There were 2 transit police in the same compartment. The cops were trailing the psychopath who also boarded the train as Lozito. The cops knew the psycho had already killed multiple people that same day. The psycho pulled a knife and stabbed Lozito multiple times. The cops did not come to Lozito’s aid. Instead, They went into the conductors booth. Eventually, several other passengers saved Lozito from the psycho. The cops then came out of the conductors booth to arrest the killer.
The courts have ruled that the police have NO DUTY to assist you. They are not required to respond, even if you are at risk of fatality. The cops are not obligated to be your first responder. So if you believe that the police will come to rescue you, please discard that Hollywood myth. The reality is that you are expected to defend yourself.
https://nypost.com/2013/01/27/city-says-cops-had-no-duty-to-protect-subway-hero-who-subdued-killer/
So, let's spend less on police and move more money into social services and helping the poor break the cycle. You can open carry along the way if you wish, I'll concede that.
Forget it.
We're at the point where the sock puppets have the thread.
The lies and self-adulation/flagellation are too dense to correct without active moderation.
(Funny watching the sock puppets boost each other, tho. It's like watching bots chat among themselves.)
Re: Gun owners commit less crime - pdq - 03-26-2024
It seems like we hit a nerve.
Do all you guys really believe that the only thing keeping our democracy are your silly guns?
How about the UK, Japan, Germany, Australia, New Zealand? How does democracy survive in all of our peer nations without a zillion guns?
Do you really believe that “well-regulated militia” meant their flintlocks were in good working order? Really?
Do you? Really?
I can’t even…
Re: Gun owners commit less crime - DeusxMac - 03-26-2024
Sorry, late to this party...
wowzer wrote:
Please stop believing anti-gunners who want to eliminate ALL guns from civilian hands and make a police state possible.
Bare assertion fallacy – a claim that is presented as true without support, as self-evidently true, or as dogmatically true.
wowzer wrote: The US is the police of the world; if the fight in Ukraine doesn't make this crystal clear, then nothing will. Who gets to police the US government? The people. And don't be naive in thinking that a vote on a ballot is enough to stop a police state from taking all your personal rights away.
Slippery slope – asserting that a proposed, relatively small, first action will inevitably lead to a chain of related events resulting in a significant and negative event and, therefore, should not be permitted.
wowzer wrote: It is strictly the threat of millions of armed Americans which stop any politician from becoming a dictator in the USA.
Again... Bare assertion fallacy
wowzer wrote: If you think any despot would hesitate to shoot all protestors, then you are fooling yourself. A despot who has to combat 88 million armed civilians would have second thoughts...
And again... Bare assertion fallacy along with Fallacy of composition – assuming that something true of part of a whole must also be true of the whole.
Re: Gun owners commit less crime - DeusxMac - 03-26-2024
wowzer wrote:
I believe that guns crime has more to do with income, rather than safety from owning a gun. However, the CDC studied this in 2008 and found 600,000-1.2million defensive gun uses per year.
"Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments, and are both socially undesirable and illegal"
"Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense"
"Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime"
"Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense"
"Few criminals are shot by decent law-abiding citizens"
"Self-defense gun use is rare and not more effective at preventing injury than other protective actions"
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/
wowzer wrote: But due to pressure from anti gunners (and Obama), they forced the CDC to remove it:
Citation consists of "...reportedly removed statistics..." based on "...emails obtained and published by The Reload show"
Anyone curious should read the Faux "news" story regardless. It quotes the email which explains:
"...that very small (CDC) study by Gary Kleck has been debunked repeatedly by everyone from all sides of this issue [even Kleck] it still remains canon by gun rights folks and their supporting politicians and is used as a blunt instrument against gun safety regulations every time there is a state or federal level hearing," Bryant's email continued. "Put simply, in the time that study has been published as ‘a CDC Study’ gun violence prevention policy has ground to a halt, in no small part because of the misinformation that small study provided."
Gun-lover do seem to be averse to actually reading their "sources". :facepalm:
Re: Gun owners commit less crime - DeusxMac - 03-26-2024
wowzer wrote:
Oh and don't believe the liars who make stuff up about how gun related crimes are up. It's only up when progressive mayors stopped enforcing laws. Just look at the recent few years of crimes that spiked when the BLM and antifa protests became riots. The subsequent defunding and lack of law enforcement creates a climate that allows criminals to commit more murders.
Bare assertion fallacy – a claim that is presented as true without support, as self-evidently true, or as dogmatically true.
Re: Gun owners commit less crime - DeusxMac - 03-26-2024
wowzer wrote:
Ohio saw a decrease in violent crimes after they adopted Constitutional Carry:
https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/2023-Pre-and-Post-Outcomes-Ohios-Permitless-Carry-Law#:~:text=Toledo%2C%20Parma%2C%20and%20Akron%20each,involving%20a%20firearm%20post%2DPCL.&text=Based%20on%20data%20from%20June,in%20the%20cities%20of%20interest.
From the link...
"Findings from recent research are mixed when examining constitutional carry, and other like laws. Some scholars argue that the enactment of such laws not only contributes to crime, but also poses a threat to public safety and increases fatal police encounters (Skowronski & Eith, 2022; Brownlee, 2023; & Doucette et al., 2023). Others question the true impact that these laws have on crime (Young, 2015; Manski & Pepper, 2018). Manski & Pepper (2018) suggested that available research on permitless carry laws and crime should be interpreted with caution as the utilized data in these studies are limited, which may be why such contradicting findings on this relationship exists in the literature."
-----------------
p.s. That "Center for Justice Research" is an entity OF the office of Ohio Attorney General Dave Yost, whom we've discussed previously...
This guy...
"Following the Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization decision, Yost filed a successful motion to dissolve the injunction on Ohio's six-week abortion ban. On June 24, 2022, Yost tweeted that 'The Heartbeat Bill is now the law.' He released a video statement on YouTube the same day in which he said, 'This decision returns abortion policy to the place it has always belonged: to the elected policies branches of the governments.'"
"A ten-year-old girl who had been raped traveled from Ohio to Indiana to have an abortion, as reported by the Indianapolis Star on July 1; her rapist was arrested by July 13. Before this arrest was made public, right-leaning politicians and media sources called the story a hoax; Ohio's attorney general Dave Yost said, "Every day that goes by, the more likely that this is a fabrication.'"
"How may we help you?"
https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Law-Enforcement/Concealed-Carry