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+--- Thread: It's all about Pakistan now (/showthread.php?tid=116367)
Re: It's all about Pakistan now - SteveO - 05-04-2011
Those of us who opposed the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq said from the beginning that war was not the answer, using intelligence and law enforcement to track down bin Laden and his lieutenants was the answer. We've been vindicated by the events of the early morning hours on Monday in Abbottabad, Pakistan. wrote:
Why this surgical strike thing never took place in the beginning is just way beyond logic and good sense. But let's face it, 9/11 and Iraq were the only things that kept Bush in office and his military industrial friends in the money. Tragic but true.
I agree with you 100% that we need to look at every dollar going to Pakistan with a microscope and LOUDLY ask "To what aim and what ROI?" I for one could gladly find a use for $20 billion in aid right here at home.
I must vehemently state that our propping up of dictatorships and friends in low places "because our enemies are courting them" is exponentially shortsighted, has gotten us into nothing but trouble and caused nothing but horrid torture, death and generations of suffering across the world whenever we've done it -- 60 years and counting.
Look across the Latin American landscape at all the juntas we've initiated and supported and you'll see innocents (oh, sorry, "communists") piled up in the tens and hundreds of thousands of bodies along with the "disappeared" that our policies have fomented. And look at Suharto in Indonesia. Look at Iran. Look at bin Laden who we were in bed with vs. the Russians. When will we learn that this policy makes no sense?
I don't disagree that Obama is status quo. Or darn close to it. I call him "Bush Lite."
Re: It's all about Pakistan now - Black - 05-04-2011
Acer wrote:They have a new toothpaste for that.
Also, Halliburton.
Re: It's all about Pakistan now - Gutenberg - 05-04-2011
Bin Laden absolutely should not have entered the Publishers' Clearing House sweepstakes. Bad mistake. Once you're on a mailing list you're on everybody's mailing list.
Seriously. The conspiracy theories are laughable. Under Obama the services were able to get Bin Laden largely because they are not stretched so dangerously thin. Bush, when faced with a monstrous crime by Al Qaeda, chose to wander off and fight someone else entirely. Obama took the fight to Al Qaeda, concentrating the troops in and on Afghanistan and running some pretty unpopular drone attacks in Pakistan. But he's the first President to put a dent in Al Qaeda. He should get credit for that. He made some very hard and risky decisions.
Re: It's all about Pakistan now - Grace62 - 05-04-2011
SteveO wrote:
[quote=Those of us who opposed the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq said from the beginning that war was not the answer, using intelligence and law enforcement to track down bin Laden and his lieutenants was the answer. We've been vindicated by the events of the early morning hours on Monday in Abbottabad, Pakistan.]
Why this surgical strike thing never took place in the beginning is just way beyond logic and good sense. But let's face it, 9/11 and Iraq were the only things that kept Bush in office and his military industrial friends in the money. Tragic but true.
I agree with you 100% that we need to look at every dollar going to Pakistan with a microscope and LOUDLY ask "To what aim and what ROI?" I for one could gladly find a use for $20 billion in aid right here at home.
I must vehemently state that our propping up of dictatorships and friends in low places "because our enemies are courting them" is exponentially shortsighted...
The other thing that Pakistan is holding over us, in addition to the fact that they are harboring al Qaeda operatives, is that all of our military equipment going into Afghanistan has to cross over land through Pakistan. So as long as that war continues, we need them, and they know it. I feel that as a gov't Pakistan has abused the US and used our military aid less to assist us in reducing terrorism in their own country and around the world, and more to prop up their own military leaders. Yes their intelligence has helped US efforts, but they were apparently so unreliable that the US thought they couldn't trust them with any info about the mission against OBL taking place right outside their capital. Not good.
Given the rather dire humanitarian needs in that country, I would prefer to see a shift to more of that type of spending and away from security-related spending.
Pakistan could become a better ally in the future, but it's going to require accountability and real results going forward.
Re: It's all about Pakistan now - Grace62 - 05-04-2011
kj wrote:
>>The short term impact of Bush's foreign policy was that terror attacks increased all over the world.
I've never seen this assertion. How would you make this case? Just curious, but not terribly invested. kj.
By Susan B. Glasser
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, April 27, 2005
The number of serious international terrorist incidents more than tripled last year, according to U.S. government figures, a sharp upswing in deadly attacks that the State Department has decided not to make public in its annual report on terrorism due to Congress this week.
Overall, the number of what the U.S. government considers "significant" attacks grew to about 655 last year, up from the record of around 175 in 2003, according to congressional aides who were briefed on statistics covering incidents including the bloody school seizure in Russia and violence related to the disputed Indian territory of Kashmir.
Terrorist incidents in Iraq also dramatically increased, from 22 attacks to 198, or nine times the previous year's total -- a sensitive subset of the tally, given the Bush administration's assertion that the situation there had stabilized significantly after the U.S. handover of political authority to an interim Iraqi government last summer.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/26/AR2005042601623.html
Re: It's all about Pakistan now - August West - 05-04-2011
kj wrote:
But some are acting like we finally now have proof Obama is a god (as they've known all along, even when they were being a fickle bunch). kj.
kj, you asked Grace62 for evidence of her assertion and she thoughtfully and accurately demonstrated it. I ask the same of you, who are the people who now have proof Obama is a god, as they have known all along?
Re: It's all about Pakistan now - Mac1337 - 05-04-2011
Gutenberg wrote:
Bin Laden absolutely should not have entered the Publishers' Clearing House sweepstakes. Bad mistake. Once you're on a mailing list you're on everybody's mailing list.
Seriously. The conspiracy theories are laughable. Under Obama the services were able to get Bin Laden largely because they are not stretched so dangerously thin. Bush, when faced with a monstrous crime by Al Qaeda, chose to wander off and fight someone else entirely. Obama took the fight to Al Qaeda, concentrating the troops in and on Afghanistan and running some pretty unpopular drone attacks in Pakistan. But he's the first President to put a dent in Al Qaeda. He should get credit for that. He made some very hard and risky decisions.
"And, almost as happily, I can report that I also completely underestimated the capacity of America's erstwhile "peace community" for turning on a dime and embracing the kind of all-American xenophobic flag-waving bloodlust they only recently decried. So today I stand proudly with my new friends of the formerly antiwar left in a mindlessly jingoistic salute to President Obama for an extralegal military assassination well done."
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/05/american-pride-is-back.html
Re: It's all about Pakistan now - Mac1337 - 05-04-2011
so true,
"Of course, I'm not naive enough to think our current wave of national unity will last forever. At some point, possibly after the next election, American troops will once again assume their traditional role of psychotic baby-killing objects of fear and pity. And, doubtlessly, those of us who still admire them must once again assume our traditional role as America's flag-humping racist chickenhawks. But when that day comes, we can look back at the week of May 1, 2011 and realize that it isn't personal. Hey, that's just the way the chad crumbles."
Re: It's all about Pakistan now - Grace62 - 05-04-2011
I'm OK with that hyperbole. There's a lot of fist-bumping for the President going on, and he deserves it. If you don't like him anyway, it must be hard to take.
Can you imagine what we'd be hearing had this mission failed?
I understand the need to express some sour grapes.
Re: It's all about Pakistan now - RgrF - 05-04-2011
kj wrote:
[quote=Seacrest]
[quote=kj]
What it all comes down to is that Obama REALLY needed a political victory to help him out of the flushed toilet. Yay for him. All the rest of the analysis is B.S. that no one actually believes. kj.
Yeah.
This.
I mean, capturing and killing the "World's Most Dangerous Man™*" is child's play, and Obama waited until just the opportune time (between election years, sure, but during May sweeps) to pull it off.
That they were able to time the whole operation perfectly to coincide with Trump's TV show finale shows just how callous and cunning this man is.
He. will. stop. at. nothing.
Nothing.
*About that. Frankly, he was a shnook. Having the whole believe he was some cool evil cat roughing it in a hilltop cave, while all the while he's chillin' P.I.M.P.-style in Pakistan's version of Bubble Hill.
Just saying that Obama needs a little help, and this will help his image, at least temporarily. But some are acting like we finally now have proof Obama is a god (as they've known all along, even when they were being a fickle bunch). kj.
kj posits have always been problematical. His assertion that he's anything but just another Idaho Obama hater has probably just gone by the boards.