Remember when Reagan asked...

[Grace62]

Understood, although I think you could argue that it's related. I think it's a good topic for conversation, you could start a new thread on that if you wish.

[August West]

Grace62 wrote:
I think it's a good topic for conversation, you could start a new thread on that if you wish.

I agree, but it's a considerable investment of time to become seriously acquainted with religious/social/economic issues. I was just thinking aloud when I posted and am not the person ideally grounded to introduce this issue. Introducing such a discussion would require more specific knowledge then I currently have time to gather.

Another thought I did have, which is germane to the discussion, was why wouldn't the economic value provided by the religious community appear in other forms? It doesn't seem that if churches were taxed, or if they disappeared, it necessarily follows that economic contribution would disappear. In my mind it would manifest itself through other avenues. A person who fed the homeless through a church program could find a secular program that provides the same end. To me, it all comes back to my opinion, which I expressed in a previous thread, that all the works of religion can find expression in a secular context, and that would alleviate the specter of religious tension and animosity I often encounter.

[Grace62]

So your plan is to tax churches, but not other not-for profit organizations? How exactly would you separate them?

In addition to worship on Sunday, in our sanctuary over the past week the following has taken place:
Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, officers of our local youth soccer club meeting, cancer walk-a-thon meeting, violin lessons, free yoga class open to the public, Mommy and me class open to the public (not religious,) ESL classes that are free to participants and funded by a local agency, high school orchestra chamber orchestra recital, and a wilderness first aid course taught by the Red Cross. Our church does not expect any benefit from these activities, nor do we influence the participants. This is one of the ways we serve the public, by subsidizing these types of activities.

None of these activities has another good place to meet in our small town, the scout troops in particular have a tough time finding spaces large enough for the group that are free, so we subsidize them by letting them use our space for free.
What of that are you going to tax? Just the worship, or everything?
If you tax everything, you've now crossed into taxing not for profits that are not religious in nature.

[August West]

Grace62 wrote:
So your plan is to tax churches, but not other not-for profit organizations? How exactly would you separate them?

It was my impression, and I may be entirely wrong, that non profits were liable for property taxes.

Our church does not expect any benefit from these activities, nor do we influence the participants.

You may not expect any benefit, but I believe an argument can be made that you influence the participants.

None of these activities has another good place to meet in our small town,

This runs to my point, perhaps if the playing field were leveled, and all organizations paid property taxes, there would be more diversity and a locale that was not religious in nature would emerge to serve these activities. Perhaps increased property tax revenue would allow a community center in which those who feel burdened participating in events in a religious space would be more comfortable.

ETA Typo correction

[Grace62]

Here's the law in my state. In general, most but not all not for profits are exempt from property tax:

Nonprofit organizations in the state of Washington may be eligible for an exemption from property tax. In most situations, nonprofit ownership is required to qualify for an exemption. In addition, the organization must conduct an activity specifically identified in the exemption laws. The use of the property determines the exemption. Not all nonprofit organizations have a purpose and activity that entitles them to an exemption.
Typical organizations receiving a property tax exemption are schools, churches, cemeteries, hospitals, social service agencies, character building organizations, nursing homes, homes for the aging, museums, and public meeting halls. Nonprofit organizations engaged in artistic performances for the general public, including production of musical, dance, artistic, dramatic and literary works, as well as art, scientific and historical collections, are also exempt from the property tax on property actually used for these purposes.
Generally, labor unions or fraternal organizations are not eligible for an exemption, unless they are using their property for an activity exempted by law. For example, a training facility operated by a labor union could qualify for an exemption as a school.

This is most likely what our church would do if the law changed and religious activity were subject taxed:
The way we would be hurt more is that donations to the religious activities would no longer be tax deductible, right? So we'd have to split tithing and donations to the non-profit, which would have a chilling effect on the public services, to be sure.

We would form a separate not for profit for our non-religious activities happening in our church. That would get tricky...where would AA meetings fall? They have a religious basis but operate completely independently from our church.
So we would pay taxes on the time and percent of the building used for worship, religious education and congregational meetings and fellowship, but not the other activities.
This would bring in relatively little money to the community, frankly I don't see the value.

Our town just built a beautiful new community center and we have a lot of schools, of course, but use of those is not free, it's quite expensive actually. We are doing something that local government simply will not do, which is fully subsidizing activities that we think are important for groups with very little revenue.

And how you would you handle very large not for profits like Catholic Charities USA? They are the largest private social service network in our country but are not funded by the church. Would they be taxed because they operate on religious values but don't operate as a church? There are so many of those organizations, I think you'd be in for a shock if you tried to say that everything associated with religion has to be taxed.

[Grace62]

Also, about the comment concerning our "influence" over people who use the building for non-religious activities. I live in a part of the country where most people do not belong to a church. Use of church buildings by the public for other activities is normal and not thought of as "indoctrination" in any way.
No one has ever expressed discomfort over using our church because we have worship there on Sundays, people are not that easily swayed because they are sitting in a room that is sometimes used for religious purposes, I think you assign way too much power to that.

[Acer]

The average church basement is not much of a "religious locale." Perhaps a cross or some posters, but the stained glass and iconography are elsewhere, say in the sanctuary which is not as useful to rentals.

It is true that by merely being a gracious host, many churches hope to encourage visitors for other activities to become curious about the church itself.

Then again, the environmental nonprofit I work for has a similar strategy when it allows community use, that is, to be a community presence and remind people of our existence for future consideration.

[Grace62]

Yes, I'd agree with that. In the case of our building, which is very modern, the sanctuary itself is a multi-purpose room of Scan design that you wouldn't recognize as a place of worship if you went in on a day other than Sunday. There is no cross on the wall, no permanent altar, and no pews. There is artwork but you wouldn't recognize it as "Christian." It's a pretty "unchurchy" place by traditional east coast standards. We modify the space for worship.

One important thing, some of us don't see the world as "secular" and "religious." It's all the world. All a part. Many people are involved with our ministries who are either of a different faith or no faith. It doesn't matter to us, the work is what matters.

[kj]

An idea I would like to add is that a majority of Christians aren't going to agree that secular services are the same as similar religious services. I've participated in both secular and religious charitable endeavors, and they're not the same. I attribute that to the involvement of God and his effect on those who are doing his will. I'm not saying anyone has to agree, but surely that's something a non-religious person can at least understand.

Another point is that as it stands, secular organizations are free to provide many of the services churches provide in our community, but they simply do not. I believe it's because people are "moved by the Holy Spirit". Even if you are an atheist, I think one could recognize there is a spiritual aspect that is unlikely to exist outside a religious context. It provides a type of motivation and devotion I've not often seen in secular organizations. kj.

[August West]

kj wrote:
An idea I would like to add is that a majority of Christians aren't going to agree that secular services are the same as similar religious services. I've participated in both secular and religious charitable endeavors, and they're not the same. I attribute that to the involvement of God and his effect on those who are doing his will. I'm not saying anyone has to agree, but surely that's something a non-religious person can at least understand.

I understand that people perceive what they wish to perceive. You invest a lot in your god, thus you wish to see the influence of your god in the world. How are secular charitable endeavors different qualitatively from religious endeavors?

kj wrote:
Another point is that as it stands, secular organizations are free to provide many of the services churches provide in our community, but they simply do not.

That says more about your perceptions and your community than it does about secular organizations. I have participated in many charitable endeavors in my community and they have been through secular organizations. There is no need for a holy spirit to be charitable.