Who is the worst President ever?

[Mac-A-Matic]

Gutenberg wrote:
Sorry, Mac, not. The endorsement of torture, the "extraordinary renditions," the warrantless wiretapping, the national security letters and domestic spying were all put into effect by executive order before the USA Patriot Act ever went before Congress. The immoral and completely unnecessary war in Iraq was endorsed by Democrats who fell for lies from the administration. Warrantless wiretaps and national security letters were recently overturned in the courts, thank God.

Did you really state that democrats fell for lies?

I can certainly go along with the claim that republicans followed blindly of The Glorious Leader, but to say that democrats did the same is even worse.

One would think, nee expect that democrats would question and double check a president of their opposing party, not blindly follow whatever story that president told them. Hell, there's politicians who said they didn't even READ the USA PATRIOT Act.

The fact remains that even in 2005 - after we "realized" that the Oval Office had "lied" our politicians did nothing. Well, nothing except extent the USA PATRIOT Act, continue with rendition, torture, Guantanamo Bay and the war in Iraq.

Yet, even after evidence has been presented that damns everyone, you still want us to believe that democrats are somehow not complicit?


Really now...

[mikeylikesit]

The Executive Branch of government has access to information available to no one else. Congress and the public rely on the Executive to provide truthful information about public policy matters while protecting state security secrets. They didn't do that.

Your partisan desire to spread blame is understandable. Make no mistake it's nothing more than a smokescreen to prevent blame from landing where it belongs squarely on the shoulders of the Executive Branch of this administration.

[Mac-A-Matic]

mikeylikesit wrote:

Your partisan desire to spread blame is understandable. Make no mistake it's nothing more than a smokescreen to prevent blame from landing where it belongs squarely on the shoulders of the Executive Branch of this administration.

My partisan desire?

Obviously, you don't know a darned thing about me or who I voted for.

mikeylikesit wrote: Congress and the public rely on the Executive to provide truthful information about public policy matters while protecting state security secrets. They didn't do that.

Bush lied. Lied about WMDs. Is there really much debate about that? Or that we've invaded another country? No. They lied.

The issue here is the absurd level of denial amongst supposed liberals that democrats had nothing to do with the current situation we (as a nation) find ourselves mired.

The fact remains that the democrats have been COMPLICIT in the destruction of our nation.

mikeylikesit wrote: The Executive Branch of government has access to information available to no one else.

Agreed. Which is undoubtedly why Obama has been changing his stance on issues since he started receiving the Presidential Daily Brief.

[mikeylikesit]

Which public policy positions has he changed?

Members of Congress from both parties relied on false information provided by the Executive Branch. Dems had no chairmanships and Repubs refused to do oversight.

Spread the blame as you will but no one is more responsible than the Executive.

[Doc]

mikeylikesit wrote:
Which public policy positions has he changed?

Members of Congress from both parties relied on false information provided by the Executive Branch. Dems had no chairmanships and Repubs refused to do oversight.

Spread the blame as you will but no one is more responsible than the Executive.

Dems didn't just vote for the Patriot Act. They voted to renew it with knowledge that that they had been lied to and that it had been abused. They also voted for the Military Commissions Act which contains more unconstitutional assaults on democracy and human rights than even the Alien Enemies and Sedition Acts of 1798.

Dems have not just been complacent in undermining our civil liberties, they have been co-conspirators.

There is no defending them. They are royal a-holes who don't give a sh!t about us -- just like their Republican cronies.

[Ted King]

Doc wrote:
[quote=mikeylikesit]
Which public policy positions has he changed?

Members of Congress from both parties relied on false information provided by the Executive Branch. Dems had no chairmanships and Repubs refused to do oversight.

Spread the blame as you will but no one is more responsible than the Executive.

Dems didn't just vote for the Patriot Act. They voted to renew it with knowledge that that they had been lied to and that it had been abused. They also voted for the Military Commissions Act which contains more unconstitutional assaults on democracy and human rights than even the Alien Enemies and Sedition Acts of 1798.

Dems have not just been complacent in undermining our civil liberties, they have been co-conspirators.

There is no defending them. They are royal a-holes who don't give a sh!t about us -- just like their Republican cronies.
Yeah, they knew what they were doing. It was as much a matter of self-preservation as anything else. The American public was primed to reject anyone who could be even slightly stuck with the label "unpatriotic" (see Max Cleland). That short-sighted self-preservation reflex made me angry, but I can understand it. Fear will always be the biggest danger to civil liberties (although prejudice is a very close second).

[Mac-A-Matic]

Ted King wrote:
Yeah, they knew what they were doing. It was as much a matter of self-preservation as anything else.

Exactly.

Whether they're democrats or republicans, it's always about self-preservation and screwing the people.

And with the USA PATRIOT Act they screwed us royally.


Oh, and about Obama and The Office of the President-Elect changing positions:

Here's an AP report on BreitBart.com
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D90ETE9O0&show_article=1&catnum=0

And a recent report from Israeli Daily Haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1045687.html


As a side note, according to CNN.com, Obama started receiving his PDB (Presidential Daily Briefs) on Thursday, November 6th.

[Mac1337]

There are precious few policies on fighting terrorism that Obama will reverse. I suspect even Gitmo will stay open for business. What is amusing is that all his supporters will roll over and actually praise his judgment and courage. Excuses and rationalizations are being worked on as we speak. After 2 years and a billion dollars McCain could have easily picked the same cabinet. Do you hear grumbles? No on this forum.

[$tevie]

You are just looking for things to get ticked off about. Obama's cabinet isn't radical enough for you? LOL.

[Gutenberg]

I think "angry" is an apt description for many Republicans, not just Texas Republicans.

http://forums.macresource.com/read.php?2,629939