‘This Is How We Lost to the White Man’

[mattkime]

>>Interesting that you'd characterize this as an exclusively conservative idea

I'd say that liberals, in general, are much less concerned with issues of moral virtue. (with the very large exception of environmental issues.....and large institutions) Earning money is an amoral action. But there is a significant conservative element that believes that god helps those who help themselves therefore those who have "helped" themselves the most must be favored by god.

Cosby's message falls in line with some basic conservative beliefs but without a religious emphasis. i don't think this makes him a proper conservative. Cosby is calling for change whereas republican conservatives call for a return to an ideal.

[guitarist]

Mattkime, good points. Liberals, by that description, are perhaps equally concerned with moral virtue, but differently, as you suggested, they have different priorities. A kind of virtue that's less often discussed anymore is civic virtue. The idea that we can leave our individual moral beliefs, or ethnic, or political, or religious beliefs and associations in the private sphere, and enter into the public arena on equal footing. When the label is "citizen", everyone's the same.

Another idea that conservatives share is the belief that they are "endowed by their creator" with liberty (and that this is universal to mankind) not by the state, and they lend power to the state conditionally. But morality is not a concern for non-religious conservatives. it's also fair to say that one can be a proper conservative and be a complete atheist at the same time.

I think it's Cosby's emphasis on self-reliance and family strength that marks him (or his message) as conservative. And being rich. That and being a cranky old-school moralizing hard head.

The "pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps" ethic of independence and self-determination is a conservative myth, or a pioneer American myth. Cosby asks "why can't we have our heros and myths, too?" In his argument, there's a recognition that opportunity in America isn't ever going to be equal, or fair. What makes his message blasphemous is that instead of rejecting the criticism that outsiders use against the black community, he embraces and uses it too, even sharping it. This has won him support in the community, but also good measure of embarrassment, frustration, and anger.

[$tevie]

Which brings me to the Trinity Church of Christ and their "Black Value System". What about it is so very different from what Dr. Cosby says?

http://www.tucc.org/black_value_system.html

[guitarist]

Much of it illustrates common values. But this is an example of something different than Dr Cosby's message:

"Disavowal of the Pursuit of “Middleclassness.” Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must be able to identify the “talented tenth” of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor’s control."

Not only does Cosby support rebuilding a strong black middle class, with no apologies for having this aspiration (like any other hard-working American) we don't see Cosby's speech contaminated with legacy "master/slave captor/subjugated" language. Maybe literary inventions like "Middleclassness" and phrases like "methodology on control of captives" goes over well in Humanites Department lounges, or Post-Colonial Studies programs at Spellman or Harvard, but Cosby came of age prior to the 1980s, before the official language of victimhood had been codified.

[$tevie]

But in fact they encourage people to work and to be successful. So they use catch phrases and Cosby mocks people's names: nobody's perfect. Except maybe me.

[vision63]

Guitarist, you offer a great assessment of Cosby's new mission (though I take issue with a few tiny things). I don't think black America by and large really care about what Cosby is saying outside of some sort of amusing spectacle. Certainly a lot to talk about for the punditry.

[Black Landlord]

[quote vision63]Guitarist, you offer a great assessment of Cosby's new mission (though I take issue with a few tiny things). I don't think black America by and large really care about what Cosby is saying outside of some sort of amusing spectacle. Certainly a lot to talk about for the punditry.
You seem to be suggesting that all black people are not of one unified "hive mind", and that one doesn't have the ability to speak for all.
Controversial position, can you elaborate so the general public might understand?

[vision63]

What's interesting is that black people are going through various intellectual wars amongst one another right now. Some of it involves Obama. It's actually kind of a fearful time. For ex: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail...ng_ob.html

With black people tasting the potential of being in the White House, it's getting insane. If Barack isn't the nominee, I believe that hell is gonna break loose.

[guitarist]

[quote Black Landlord][quote vision63]Guitarist, you offer a great assessment of Cosby's new mission (though I take issue with a few tiny things). I don't think black America by and large really care about what Cosby is saying outside of some sort of amusing spectacle. Certainly a lot to talk about for the punditry.
You seem to be suggesting that all black people are not of one unified "hive mind", and that one doesn't have the ability to speak for all.
Controversial position, can you elaborate so the general public might understand?
The term "Black America" suggests an implied unity that I'd argue doesn't exist. Terms like "The black community" or the "African American community" or "the Italian American community" (or the more comical example of three types that certainly don't get along or have the same agenda, the "gay-lesbian-transgender community") are overused, I think. While communities do exist, that share common values, some organized, some informal, my inclination (this is probably an unpopular view) is to think of a lot of wildly diverse individuals who defy easy categorization, once we start viewing people as 'groups' instead of individuals, it's a disservice. Some of these so-called communities couldn't agree on where to have lunch tomorrow, much less automatically agree on a political or social point of view. I'm oversimplifying. But my inclination is to think of individuals, with views that are unpredictable and contradictory, instead of groups, that hold common or consistent views.

(update: I just noticed that I began this thread by using the term I just mounted an objection to, referring to Cosby, as a "...leading voice in the community". Quoting myself. Well, that blows that argument. I'm so full of crap LOL)

But about the popularity or unpopularity of Cosby's message: what I noticed, in the handful of interviews or articles I've come across, is that Cosby draws serious crowds at these events. He speaks to standing-room-only audiences, in gymnasiums, town halls, etc., and generates of a lot of emotional energy. His message is tough, but engaging. Many in attendance are older blacks, parents and grandparents, who have seen families under siege, opportunities in decline, vulgarity and gangsterism on the rise, and are frustrated. There's a thirst for what Cosby is saying. At least inside those packed halls.

[vision63]

Well Cosby is gonna draw the same crowds if he came to spit on the ground. He's beloved and "very" famous, so everyone pays attention to him. I saw TV's Judge Mathis a couple of weeks ago speak at an event. They had to turn folks away. Whoa.

And truth be told, he isn't really saying anything that most people aren't already saying. Every preacher, every teacher.