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Think carefully before installing Yosemite on a 3rd party SSD!!
#21
OWC Larry wrote:
Our drives we've been building for Mac first since day one and it is a true benefit that no TRIM hack is needed to get the most from them in your Mac.

I get that your SSDs are fast and reliable -- some of the best in the industry -- but what about durability/lifespan without TRIM?

Flash cells have limited write cycles. Enhanced speed comes not just from better logic, but from smaller cells subject to more disturbance effects at the atomic level. SSDs slow as they age not just because of garbage collection, but also because with more writes it becomes harder and harder to distinguish the state of a memory-cell and the controller has to make repeat-attempts to read/write data.

Without TRIM, SSDs will be doing a lot of unnecessary garbage collection and wear-leveling and that implies that the inevitable slowing down and eventual failure will arrive sooner than otherwise.
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#22
Why does this discussion keep falling back to speed benefit? It seems like a no-brainer that having TRIM enabled will extend the life of a drive. I have yet to sit around lamenting that any of my non-TRIM'd SSDs aren't fast enough.
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#23
The way the Sandforce controller operates - the write amplification of these drives - without any external TRIM - are by far among the lowest in the industry. We have posted data from years of real world use in our own operation and typically the write amp is LESS than 1. In a worst case scenario - 100% incompressible data - the write amp was still under 3. This is far lower than other controllers.

What does that mean - planning a road trip.

As the crow flies, the most direct route is would be the same as a write amp of 1.0

Because your car doesn't fly - the route isn't direct.. and with SSDs - data is written and then re-organized which results in a multiple of of the actual write amount/ (distance in the analogy) occurring to actually complete the 'trip'. This can be 2-3 to even 5-20X depending on the type of data and also the size of the data blocks being written as there are other things occurring as well.

The Sandforce Processors, which utilize both advanced internal data management and compression with utilization of their over provisioned space for real time redundancy during the write process, have always been extremely efficient for minimizing write cycles. Bottom line is that Sandforce driven SSDs - like ours, like Intels- put less ware on the NAND for the same data sets than other drives and do so even with completely incompressible data.

A write Amp of less than 3.0 for a normal data mix on a typical SSD is really good... that such is the worst case scenario for Sandforce based SSDs makes them really a drive a part from the rest. That being said - TRIM can be a far more important aspect with NAND longevity with other drives.

Chakravartin wrote:
[quote=OWC Larry]
Our drives we've been building for Mac first since day one and it is a true benefit that no TRIM hack is needed to get the most from them in your Mac.

I get that your SSDs are fast and reliable -- some of the best in the industry -- but what about durability/lifespan without TRIM?

Flash cells have limited write cycles. Enhanced speed comes not just from better logic, but from smaller cells subject to more disturbance effects at the atomic level. SSDs slow as they age not just because of garbage collection, but also because with more writes it becomes harder and harder to distinguish the state of a memory-cell and the controller has to make repeat-attempts to read/write data.

Without TRIM, SSDs will be doing a lot of unnecessary garbage collection and wear-leveling and that implies that the inevitable slowing down and eventual failure will arrive sooner than otherwise.
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#24
As an aside - we were supportive of requests that Apple not do what they did with the KEXT lock outs. At the same time, we also understand why they did it.

A better solution for the Apple community at large would be for Apple to simply support TRIM for 3rd party drives.

But the reality is that Apple doesn't support upgrades of this nature period and thus to them no reason to support. The entire platform is being coming more and more fixed/locked to what as initially configured. I have to wonder at what point a large enough segment of customers just say no to this. Someone purchases a mini with only 4GB or 8GB today.... or an Air, or a Retina... realizes they need more memory 6 or 12 months from now - and the only option is buying a brand new system? That's ridiculous. The iMac hard drives... we did a really cool digital thermal module ( http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/imacdiy/#HDD ) that allows you to put any drive in your iMac without software and that maintains diagnostic compatibility too.... but #1 - shouldn't need this solution in the first place, #2 - shouldn't be this hard to get into an iMac to replace a hard drive. Hard drives fail - fact of life.... after 3-5 years, you're in the zone and likely will need a new drive... or even without failure, may just need more storage capacity. Shouldn't have to go the the Apple store and pay a small fortune to get up to a 3TB that costs 2-3X what a 5TB or 6TB would cost via other channels. You already paid a premium to have the best computer platform on the planet - other than the user/IT department serviceability.

Perfect solution - sell Apple OS X in an unsupported PC hardware compatible license version for $349. People will pay it - that will make the tinkerer's happy - give nice options to a new customer base - while keeping Apple's mass consumers happy with the buy and go models. Not perfect.. but would be nice.

Onwards and upwards. Smile
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#25
Would someone please help me understand the Sandforce controller. Is it specific to OWC products or is it industry wide implementation? Does the Samsung 840 EVO SSD use Sandforce and thus would not benefit from TRIM, according to Larry. If not using Sandforce would the EVO benefit from TRIM?
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#26
yeoman wrote:
Would someone please help me understand the Sandforce controller. Is it specific to OWC products or is it industry wide implementation? Does the Samsung 840 EVO SSD use Sandforce and thus would not benefit from TRIM, according to Larry. If not using Sandforce would the EVO benefit from TRIM?

Take the 5th, Larry!
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#27
Larry never said the Sandforce would not benefit from TRIM.
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#28
TRIM doesn't hurt a Sandforce based drive - but in the real world, the scenarios where it adds any benefit are very narrow. With nearly 5 years now of testing data, very comfortable saying there is very little if any benefit to be experienced as our drives just don't need it. The reason we got into SSDs with Sandforce, and some pain along the way admittedly, was because of the advanced internal data management these platform offers which to this level is unique only to this processor design and thus drives like ours that use the LSI/Sandforce processor.

Since 2010 - garbage collection and management has improved across pretty much all the drives - but the Durawrite technology that keeps write cycles exceptionally low on Sandforce processor based drives is unique to these drives... Drives by Samsung, Crucial, and other SSDs using other processor solutions experience higher write amplification and even performance drops under load where TRIM isn't enabled.

TRIM wasn't even an option on Mac OS in 2009 and the solution Sandforce offered not needing TRIM was the whole reason for us moving in this direction.

so - hope that answers.
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#29
OWC Larry wrote:

so - hope that answers.

Yes, thank you.
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#30
So is Apple using this form factor for their new SSDs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.2

or something proprietary?
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