Thank you, Mr. President

[Greg]

Ya lib.

[john dough]

Giving Obama any credit = too much to ask of this crowd.

Remember, this group trashed those who "attacked the president in a time of war." When the shoe is on the other foot, it is perfectly acceptable to call Obama every name in the book (and worse).

[rjmacs]

whoops! duplicate post - see below! :banghead:

[rjmacs]

Dakota wrote:
The unease among the libs here is palpable. They don't know what to say. After years of preaching following the law to show we are better than them, they get this. Everything you have spoken against has come to pass, with great results i might add.

I probably qualify as a liberal, Dakota, and i think that for those of us who endorse the rule of international law and decry the use of torture, the assassination of Osama bin Laden does raise important and difficult questions.

I've read a fair amount about the intelligence operations that led up to OBL's killing, and i haven't yet seen anything that attributes intelligence gained in the effort to waterboarding or other torture/enhanced interrogation techniques. For me, this is a relief, because i oppose torture under all circumstances, including the oft-mentioned 'ticking bomb' scenario. I just believe that it's wrong for one person to torture another person, no matter what the justification. That's a moral judgment, and not one that i think i can impose on anyone else.

To me, it is troubling that we entered Pakistan without authorization and conducted a secret mission that was ostensibly against international law. This isn't because i dislike the outcome - i've shed no tears for Osama bin Laden or his associates. However, i think that international law can be useful for maintaining international stability, and whenever a nation flouts the rules it weakens the entire system. The alternative to an effective international system is a system of competing empires, and i don't relish that notion at all.

I think President Obama was probably troubled by some of these questions, too, but he has shown himself over time to be a pragmatist. He recognized the value of eliminating OBL, and made the decision to send in the SEALS. It was a risk, and the operation carried real costs - financial, diplomatic, and geopolitical. In a real way, acts like this weaken the system of international law, and as a supporter of the U.N. i suspect this bothers him. His address to the nation was somber and serious, as it should have been, and it's clear that the administration is treading very carefully around the issue of releasing photos, how the burial was conducted, etc. It's a delicate balancing act, and i don't envy him - he's put himself in a tough spot. But, that's what pragmatists do: they take actions that work politically but are difficult ideologically. Personally, i'd rather have a pragmatist than an ideologue in the White House, but this is a personal preference.

There's a lot of mishmash in this thread, but i hope that something useful comes out of the exchange.

[hal]

can't wait to see Dak's one line response to that well thought post...

yes, I'm here for entertainment... NOT for an exchange of ideas... that's just silly...

[Mac1337]

rjmacs wrote:

There's a lot of mishmash in this thread, but i hope that something useful comes out of the exchange.

It may be hard to hear it here but I am actually praising Obama. The difference between resident partisans and I is that I did not have to change my way of thinking and become an interventionist hawk because of politics. The team who killed Osama used to be called Cheney assassination squad and smeared daily here and elsewhere. Now when Obama hires them they are heros. Obama did everything that liberals here have railed against all their lives. You want to smoke them out? Ask if we should go into Yemen now and snatch Zawahiri if he is there? They can't say yes, they can't say no. This is what happens when you paint yourself into a corner.

[Carnos Jax]

BS, you've had to change your outlook so much that you can only cope with the real world by creating artificial constructs in your mind. You still don't get the difference between Serbia/Kosovo, Libya and Iraq...do you?

[Mac1337]

Looked up "liberals on Macresource forum after bin Laden". PRETZEL came up.

[rjmacs]

Dakota wrote:
[quote=rjmacs]

There's a lot of mishmash in this thread, but i hope that something useful comes out of the exchange.

It may be hard to hear it here but I am actually praising Obama. The difference between resident partisans and I is that I did not have to change my way of thinking and become an interventionist hawk because of politics. The team who killed Osama used to be called Cheney assassination squad and smeared daily here and elsewhere. Now when Obama hires them they are heros. Obama did everything that liberals here have railed against all their lives. You want to smoke them out? Ask if we should go into Yemen now and snatch Zawahiri if he is there? They can't say yes, they can't say no. This is what happens when you paint yourself into a corner.
I hear you, Dakota, and recognize your praise. I'm not entirely convinced that everyone else here is a 'resident partisan,' (on the left or right) but i definitely see your point. Sometimes even folks who aren't ideologues can sound like it when they're hollering. All the same, you're correct: if i needed to justify every decision the President makes using my own arguments, i'd end up stuck in a corner. For me, i don't feel that i must always agree with the President to support him. Lots of President Bush's supporters disagreed with some of his initiatives but were still loyal to his presidency. I think it can get pretty complex, and discussing the complexities is useful.

You make some valuable points on the forum, Dakota. Sometimes i think that their value gets lost because when folks get painted with labels (liberal, conservative, right-wing, socialist, etc.) it makes it harder to engage in good conversation about the sticky spots. I'm trying to do that here by acknowledging that although i am a liberal, and i support the President, it doesn't mean that i am not troubled by some of his decisions. There aren't any politicians who completely represent my views, nor are there any who are so anathema to me that i won't discuss their merits.

We get a lot of black and white here on the forum (i don't just mean you, Dakota - we all participate in the barb-flinging). I'm trying very slowly to mix the pigments and get the conversation to be more interesting. Thanks for hearing me out, even though we don't always agree - i appreciate it.

Edited because i talk too much.

[Carnos Jax]

Dakota wrote:
Looked up "liberals on Macresource forum after bin Laden". PRETZEL came up.

...then by comparison you would be a pile wet, overcooked spaghetti.