Thank you, Mr. President

[OWC Jamie]

Grace62 wrote:
There would be no reason for US troops in the country to train Pakistani soldiers to be out doing intelligence and surveillance work in the surrounding neighborhood. And I seriously doubt that OBL was stopping by the military academy for tea.

That was the job of the Pakistani intelligence agency, and they failed.

I fully acknowledge that this took years of intelligence work, and I greatly appreciate that work. Had our gov't stayed focused on that, who knows how much sooner this situation could have been resolved.

Wow you got some heavy duty good crack to smoke today.

[Grace62]

billb wrote:
[quote=Grace62]
There would be no reason for US troops in the country to train Pakistani soldiers to be out doing intelligence and surveillance work in the surrounding neighborhood. And I seriously doubt that OBL was stopping by the military academy for tea.

That was the job of the Pakistani intelligence agency, and they failed.

I fully acknowledge that this took years of intelligence work, and I greatly appreciate that work. Had our gov't stayed focused on that, who knows how much sooner this situation could have been resolved.

Wow you got some heavy duty good crack to smoke today.
So you agree with me?

[OWC Jamie]

Grace62 wrote:
[quote=billb]
[quote=Grace62]
There would be no reason for US troops in the country to train Pakistani soldiers to be out doing intelligence and surveillance work in the surrounding neighborhood. And I seriously doubt that OBL was stopping by the military academy for tea.

That was the job of the Pakistani intelligence agency, and they failed.

I fully acknowledge that this took years of intelligence work, and I greatly appreciate that work. Had our gov't stayed focused on that, who knows how much sooner this situation could have been resolved.

Wow you got some heavy duty good crack to smoke today.
So you agree with me?

That was my point.



Hillary Clinton has stated repeatedly that Pakistan counterterrorism mechanisms helped U.S. interests get Bin Laden.
Don't quite understand what all the blue pill pundit drum beating is all about.


With the continued presence of al-qaeada forces within Pakistan I rather doubt too many officials want to go on record as having helped the West "get their man".

Al-qaeada hardly needs Bin Laden to continue to exist.

There's more work to do in Pakistan - Bin Laden's not the end of our presence there, unfortunately.
We also have to tread lightly due to India.


Times have changed a bit in the last decade to allow better relations with India and Pakistan.
Obama is wise to take advantage of them. He didn't invent them.

[rjmacs]

haikuman wrote:
Goodhousekeeping requires taking out the trash/garbage...sometimes even if it is in one of your neighbors yard it needs to be done... disease and all manner of miscreants live within the garbage of society... there will always be a need to remove the garbage and there will always be a need for courageous men to make the decisions, and more courageous men to undertake the task.

A good thing is just that... a good thing. Acceptance is a road cluttered with false purchase.
Perhaps in reality we just need to let go .......

Rudie

Rudie,

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I think that you have a point insofar as the whole world is burdened by the responsibility to stop people like Osama bin Laden. However, your phrasing does bother me a bit: "disease and all manner of miscreants live within the garbage of society...there will always be a need to remove the garbage."

I realize you're referring here to terrorists like OBL and i acknowledge that. However, i'm reminded that despots and terrorists justify the purge and slaughter of their opponents with words like this. Many folks here have expressed their justifiable venom toward OBL and his associates; he was an eminently hateful and hateable character. But i am going to push back, gently, against any characterization of a person as a disease, or vermin, garbage, or otherwise inhuman. OBL's zeal for characterizing Americans, other Westerners, and moderate Muslims as unworthy of basic human dignity was a key aspect of his evil endeavor. I think that when we return the favor, we do ourselves a disservice and forget what it is that makes us better than he was.

I'm sorry if it seems like i'm picking on ya; i think you can tell i'm addressing a broader trend here than just your comment. Also, i know you're not prone to dehumanizing folks - this is a subject that seems to bring it out in a lot of us. You're right about the President acting on his principles; it does take courage to stand up against a wrong, even if it's unpopular.

[haikuman]

rjmacs wrote:
[quote=haikuman]
Goodhousekeeping requires taking out the trash/garbage...sometimes even if it is in one of your neighbors yard it needs to be done... disease and all manner of miscreants live within the garbage of society... there will always be a need to remove the garbage and there will always be a need for courageous men to make the decisions, and more courageous men to undertake the task.

A good thing is just that... a good thing. Acceptance is a road cluttered with false purchase.
Perhaps in reality we just need to let go .......

Rudie

Rudie,

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I think that you have a point insofar as the whole world is burdened by the responsibility to stop people like Osama bin Laden. However, your phrasing does bother me a bit: "disease and all manner of miscreants live within the garbage of society...there will always be a need to remove the garbage."

I realize you're referring here to terrorists like OBL and i acknowledge that. However, i'm reminded that despots and terrorists justify the purge and slaughter of their opponents with words like this. Many folks here have expressed their justifiable venom toward OBL and his associates; he was an eminently hateful and hateable character. But i am going to push back, gently, against any characterization of a person as a disease, or vermin, garbage, or otherwise inhuman. OBL's zeal for characterizing Americans, other Westerners, and moderate Muslims as unworthy of basic human dignity was a key aspect of his evil endeavor. I think that when we return the favor, we do ourselves a disservice and forget what it is that makes us better than he was.

I'm sorry if it seems like i'm picking on ya; i think you can tell i'm addressing a broader trend here than just your comment. Also, i know you're not prone to dehumanizing folks - this is a subject that seems to bring it out in a lot of us. You're right about the President acting on his principles; it does take courage to stand up against a wrong, even if it's unpopular.
Replace Garbage with dysfunctional *(:>* Say three hail Marry's and remember getting better at being a person is a life time job . There is no disservice me thinks. It is clearly an equation of defining the completion of a course that OBL took many years ago. His life eventually intersected with a force that reversed the polarity of mass murders and ideology...

Rudie *(:>*

[rjmacs]

haikuman wrote:
Replace Garbage with dysfunctional *(:>* Say three hail Marry's and remember getting better at being a person is a life time job . There is no disservice me thinks. It is clearly an equation of defining the completion of a course that OBL took many years ago. His life eventually intersected with a force that reversed the polarity of mass murders and ideology...

Rudie *(:>*

He reaped what he sowed, all right. I don't think anyone was surprised by his end, especially not he. He lived a life marked by evil and violence, and when his comeuppance came he was undeservedly lucky that it was so mercifully swift.

With that unkind thought, i'll go hunt for a rosary and join you...

[vision63]

haikuman wrote: Acceptance is a road cluttered with false purchase.
Perhaps in reality we just need to let go .......

Rudie

I can spell courageous

This is a great thought that fits in perfectly within the spectrum of my personal life right about now.

[haikuman]

You have my support and confidence you can accomplish anything you want to Sir Vision... even willing the Lakers to win it all *(:>*

Be well and take care

Rudie

[Carnos Jax]

Dakota wrote: I don't want to engage in personal attacks but there are people here who do nothing but follow me around, wait for my posts and then post wisecracks and insults.

It's ironic for you to complain about people posting "wisecracks and insults" in response to your posts, when that covers the vast majority of your posts around here.

You almost always set a nasty tone with threads you start, and poison other threads with the same...so you expect people to respond to you in a civil manner? Rather, they respond to you in the only manner you seem to understand.

On top of that, you criticize people for their points of view, but will either not respond when 'shown the error of your ways' or, when painted into a corner, you start calling people names.

Give it time, I bet you start insulting/calling rjmacs names. Several posters around here reached out to you (both liberal and conservative) only for you to eventually insult them on a regular basis.

You don't have the freedom to behave in a belligerant manner and not expect people to criticize you in return (hence your paranoia of being followed around here). If you want to change, then behave in a civilized manner. You'll notice no other poster here (conservative or liberal) has the kind of problems you do. Have you stopped just once to think why that may be?

[Mac1337]

haikuman wrote:
[quote=rjmacs]
[quote=Acer]
I don't know if Pakistan's sovereignty and the corresponding international law has really been violated here. We've been operating within their borders militarily with their permission for years, now. Yes, it's been increasingly begrudged, but it has not been revoked.

Well, it's a gray area. We have specific agreements (written, signed agreements) that specify the terms of our conducting military operations within Pakistan's borders. Because these documents are classified, none of us is in a position to say whether the agreements have been observed. What is clear is that Pakistan isn't going to protest or contest the action, and in the tradition of Common Law - no harm, no foul.

However, as a legal precedent, President Obama clearly did not deem it necessary to obtain Pakistan's consent for this operation - and the timeline makes it clear that even if Zardari had objected we would have acted. (That's one of the key reasons not to ask.) In this instance, this isn't a problem. However, there are arguably similar cases in which it could be a huge problem, so the precedent is troubling to me.
Goodhousekeeping requires taking out the trash/garbage...sometimes even if it is in one of your neighbors yard it needs to be done... disease and all manner of miscreants live within the garbage
of society... there will always be a need to remove the garbage and there will always be a need for courageous men to make the decisions, and more courageous men to undertake the task.

A good thing is just that... a good thing. Acceptance is a road cluttered with false purchase.
Perhaps in reality we just need to let go .......

Rudie

I can spell courageous
Did you forget to put out the trash again?