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The surgically precise locating, capturing, and killing of Osama bin Laden has brought into sharp relief the ineffectiveness and completely wrong focus of Bush's foreign policy. Bush went after "the man who tried to kill my Daddy..." The Obama administration got the world's most wanted terrorist and criminal.
The CIA and the nation's top security apparatus has re-earned America's respect, after the disaster that was the handling of pre-9/11 intelligence, the Iraq war build-up, and the aftermath of the invasion and occupation.
Those of us who opposed the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq said from the beginning that war was not the answer, using intelligence and law enforcement to track down bin Laden and his lieutenants was the answer. We've been vindicated by the events of the early morning hours on Monday in Abbottabad, Pakistan.
Now we have to focus on our relationship with that country - what the heck was going on during the Musharraf era? What did he do with our billions except prop up his own unconstitutional military regime, with the blessings of Pres. Bush?
The top 8 al Queda operatives have been caught in Pakistan. Now we know that OBL was hiding there for at least the past 5 or 6 years, maybe longer.
Not hiding in caves, but living in cities. And we caught them through intelligence work, sometimes aided by Pakistan, sometimes obstructed. Not bombing and occupation, not torture.
The rest of this story is about our relationship with Pakistan. Every dollar of military aid going there needs to be under a microscope.
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Uhm... you're kind of over-empiricising things here, and completely missing the 30 year history of Al Quaeda.
Let's go for the facts.
Fact 1- GW went into Iraq for pride. No real question about it.
Fact 2- Afghanistan under the Taliban was Al Quaeda HQ. Just ask Bill Clinton why he fired a few cruise missiles in there... to try to get Osama bin Laden.
Fact 3- The northern frontier of Pakistan has always been a quasi-separate nation.
Fact 4- Our relationship with Pakistan has always been difficult. The relationship began primarily as a realpolitik cold war approach to controlling Soviet influence in India. Once the Soviets went into Afhanistan, the mohajir (Afghan refugee) situation made Pakistani politics a huge mess.. and it has not recovered.
Fact 5- The whole point may be moot, since the Pakistanis are continuing to get closer militarily to the Chinese. The same Chinese who helped them develop nuclear weapons and ICBM capability. I know this. I was there, cholly..
So yeah. Go ahead and pull away from the military dictatorship controlling that dog's breakfast of a country. You'll really enjoy a Jihadist country with nukes.
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Grace62 wrote:
Those of us who opposed the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq said from the beginning that war was not the answer, using intelligence and law enforcement to track down bin Laden and his lieutenants was the answer. We've been vindicated by the events of the early morning hours on Monday in Abbottabad, Pakistan.
Not so fast, sister. I am not gonna let you slither out of this. What do you think this mission was? It is worse than war. You invade a country, an dally no less, kill people and leave. You mean to tell me that a hand-wringing liberal concerned what Muslim countries think of us is now for this sort of thing? OK, say Zawahiri is in Yemen right now. Should we go in guns blazing? Is this how you seek your daily vindication now?
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Dakota wrote:
[quote=Grace62]
Those of us who opposed the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq said from the beginning that war was not the answer, using intelligence and law enforcement to track down bin Laden and his lieutenants was the answer. We've been vindicated by the events of the early morning hours on Monday in Abbottabad, Pakistan.
Not so fast, sister. I am not gonna let you slither out of this. What do you think this mission was? It is worse than war. You invade a country, an dally no less, kill people and leave. You mean to tell me that a hand-wringing liberal concerned what Muslim countries think of us is now for this sort of thing? OK, say Zawahiri is in Yemen right now. Should we go in guns blazing? Is this how you seek your daily vindication now?
Are you drunk?
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cbelt3 wrote:
Uhm... you're kind of over-empiricising things here, and completely missing the 30 year history of Al Quaeda.
Let's go for the facts.
Fact 1- GW went into Iraq for pride. No real question about it.
Fact 2- Afghanistan under the Taliban was Al Quaeda HQ. Just ask Bill Clinton why he fired a few cruise missiles in there... to try to get Osama bin Laden.
Fact 3- The northern frontier of Pakistan has always been a quasi-separate nation.
Fact 4- Our relationship with Pakistan has always been difficult. The relationship began primarily as a realpolitik cold war approach to controlling Soviet influence in India. Once the Soviets went into Afhanistan, the mohajir (Afghan refugee) situation made Pakistani politics a huge mess.. and it has not recovered.
Fact 5- The whole point may be moot, since the Pakistanis are continuing to get closer militarily to the Chinese. The same Chinese who helped them develop nuclear weapons and ICBM capability. I know this. I was there, cholly..
So yeah. Go ahead and pull away from the military dictatorship controlling that dog's breakfast of a country. You'll really enjoy a Jihadist country with nukes.
I'm talking about the post 9/11 world, and the future. I'm not saying pull away from Pakistan, I'm saying take a much, much closer look at what's happening there than we have in the past. Our focus has been wrong. That's what I'm saying.
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No, I just called you out. Spot on.
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There was a great discussion on the PBS news hour last night.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism...05-02.html
An interview with Madeleine Albright and Chuck Hagel. Both extremely knowledgeable foreign policy people, one left, one right, but both were in complete agreement throughout the discussion.
Both said that the most likely reason for the capture is the great strides made in intel collection.
Both agree that, like it or not, were are partnered with Pakistan. We still need to work with them.
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I heard that interview and I agree. FYI - Chuck Hagel is not "on the right..."
Why do people think I'm saying we shouldn't work with Pakistan?
I'm saying we need to change our approach and focus a lot more on Pakistan. We've let them slide a matter of crappola past us the past 8 years.
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Dakota wrote:
[quote=Grace62]
Those of us who opposed the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq said from the beginning that war was not the answer, using intelligence and law enforcement to track down bin Laden and his lieutenants was the answer. We've been vindicated by the events of the early morning hours on Monday in Abbottabad, Pakistan.
Not so fast, sister. I am not gonna let you slither out of this. What do you think this mission was? It is worse than war. You invade a country, an dally no less, kill people and leave. You mean to tell me that a hand-wringing liberal concerned what Muslim countries think of us is now for this sort of thing? OK, say Zawahiri is in Yemen right now. Should we go in guns blazing? Is this how you seek your daily vindication now?
Your emotional response to Obama's unprecedented policy triumph is interesting. I'm enjoying it.
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Grace62 wrote:
Your emotional response to Obama's unprecedented policy triumph is interesting. I'm enjoying it.
The lack of even a tiny amount of Donald relevancy has left a void in his psyche.
He deserves our pity.
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