What is happening with in-class vs online learning for K-12 ??

[deckeda]

rz wrote:
Let me relay an interesting story to you about my sister. When I was going into Jr. High, we moved to Tennessee. The educational system there was easily two years behind the schools we came from. My sister was going into her Junior year. They basically put her in all Senior level classes. When she finished the year, they told her they had nothing left to teach her... except there was a state law that in order to graduate, she had to take a year of Tennessee history. They told her to enroll at UT-Chattanooga and take a Tennessee history class, and at the end of the year they would give her a diploma.

Well, she attended UTC for a year and at the end of the year went back and showed them that she had taken a Tennessee history class. Well, they backed out of the deal. They refused to give her a diploma. At this point, my dad got transferred back up north. So she enrolled at U of Delaware as a transfer student. They transferred her year of classes at UTC and never asked to see a HS diploma. So she graduated college and got an MBA, but has no HS diploma.

Not sure that helps at all, but I can sympathize about the ridiculousness of the Tennessee school system.

My wife spent several years growing up in this town. We're only here because her mom is here, and because she offered us a house to stay in. I think there was a year my wife drove into Nashville with an older brother to attend high school but had to finish here. She remembers getting textbooks she'd already read the year before when going to school in Nashville.

[N-OS X-tasy!]

rz wrote:
Let me relay an interesting story to you about my sister. When I was going into Jr. High, we moved to Tennessee. The educational system there was easily two years behind the schools we came from. My sister was going into her Junior year. They basically put her in all Senior level classes. When she finished the year, they told her they had nothing left to teach her... except there was a state law that in order to graduate, she had to take a year of Tennessee history. They told her to enroll at UT-Chattanooga and take a Tennessee history class, and at the end of the year they would give her a diploma.

Well, she attended UTC for a year and at the end of the year went back and showed them that she had taken a Tennessee history class. Well, they backed out of the deal. They refused to give her a diploma. At this point, my dad got transferred back up north. So she enrolled at U of Delaware as a transfer student. They transferred her year of classes at UTC and never asked to see a HS diploma. So she graduated college and got an MBA, but has no HS diploma.

Not sure that helps at all, but I can sympathize about the ridiculousness of the Tennessee school system.

That’s a great story! Except for the part where they did her dirty by backing out of the deal.

[davec]

bfd wrote: But unless there are significant safeguards, any teacher who goes back into a classroom right now is - seriously – putting their life on the line. In some cases, for about $125 a day. How many of them are going to decide that "the kids" just aren't worth that risk? Probably not that many, but for every one of them that does, it'll mean a less qualified person in their place - and that's a real problem.

Excellent point! The other issue the districts are not yet facing is availability of substitute teachers when teaching staff get sick from COVID-19. I can't imagine there will be many subs excited about substitute teaching in what would likely be a COVID hotspot classroom.

Dave

[deckeda]

bfd wrote:
Canvas is just a shell. It's a Learning Management System. It doesn't teach anything. It's not a program. It's a way to organize the "stuff" for online teaching. You will still see a hodgepodge of stuff. Only now, the hodgepodge will be "organized" into modules. Unless the district has undertaken a fairly robust inservice program for teachers in how to successfully transition to a virtual teaching setting, there won't be much change, and there'll be more teachers who throw their hands up in the air.

In general, it'd take at least a few weeks in the summer of fairly rigorous in-service training just to get up to speed on how to use a LMS. That's not delivering instruction, it's just learning how to use the system. Then there's the actual teaching strategies like making videos for instruction, holding Zoom sessions successfully, helping students that don't get it, students that need more time, and students that need to move more deeply into the material, collecting work, grading and returning work, and all the stuff that goes with that.

It's not likely that much of the online teaching you see this fall will look any different than it did in the spring - schools and teachers just haven't had enough time to relearn the dance and practice it yet. That's why the big push for back in school is so strong. No need to relearn anything if everything's face-to-face. But unless there are significant safeguards, any teacher who goes back into a classroom right now is - seriously – putting their life on the line. In some cases, for about $125 a day. How many of them are going to decide that "the kids" just aren't worth that risk? Probably not that many, but for every one of them that does, it'll mean a less qualified person in their place - and that's a real problem.

One of the teachers we know will be homeschooling her daughter I think. Not returning to her job.


... I work with instructors who teach to adult learners. We're in the process of breaking away from a partner company who controls our LMS (a combination of Drupal front door tied to Moodle). It's trash. It has so many problems, and the service from this company is horrible. But they possess ALL of our data due to a miserable CEO who made this deal a few years go. He also literally helped create a competitor by his stupidity of shitcanning our previous partner, who was great.

When covid hit and the various universities and training center partners lost their mind, they begged us to let our content be taught virtually. And so we quickly gave a few one-off exceptions so that cohorts could be closed out.

That begat an "interim virtual" model for one core product, with training and materials ... and then instructors mainly listening not to us (who grant them license to teach ... ) but to the people PAYING them to teach, with a wild west idea for how may sessions, length of sessions, sessions per day and so on. It's been a pain in the ass trying to reel everyone in so that our brand, marketplace position and reputation, and oh yeah, the STUDENTS are not harmed.

We will not have anything concrete and non-interim in place at work until 2021 ... it takes a long time to adapt to virtual instruction AND it cannot be a full substitute regardless. I had someone from one of our chapters ask me point-blank why one of our qualified instructors simply can't turn on the computer, push a few buttons and teach online.

We make chapters and other partners sign a contract --- the regular one that only addresses in-class courses --- that includes examples of acceptable seating arrangements, # of students per table and so on. It's got nothing to do with safety, it's about ensuring the right learning environment. So we care about that, but this yahoo (a non-instructor ... ) wondered what's the "big deal" about switching to virtual.

[N-OS X-tasy!]

bfd wrote:
It's not likely that much of the online teaching you see this fall will look any different than it did in the spring - schools and teachers just haven't had enough time to relearn the dance and practice it yet. That's why the big push for back in school is so strong. No need to relearn anything if everything's face-to-face. But unless there are significant safeguards, any teacher who goes back into a classroom right now is - seriously – putting their life on the line. In some cases, for about $125 a day. How many of them are going to decide that "the kids" just aren't worth that risk? Probably not that many, but for every one of them that does, it'll mean a less qualified person in their place - and that's a real problem.

The REAL problem is that we are forced to choose between bringing kids back into the schools or continuing on with at-home “learning” that has been shown to be anything but. Think COVID infection rates are climbing now? Wait until kids are back in school — infection rates will SKYROCKET far beyond anything we’ve seen so far. Death rates will closely follow.

But subjecting kids to another year of at-home learning will serious stunt their educational progress. At least here in Los Angeles, at-home learning produced results far below those hoped for. bfd is right: K-12 educators simply haven’t had enough time to learn how to do this well. And that’s only one of many factors that affect the effectiveness of at-home learning, many of which are 100% out of the administration’s control.

This is a true no-win situation.

[bfd]

One almost wants to advocate for kids just 'taking a year off' at this point … maybe they'd actually learn some things they couldn't learn any other way … unfortunately, that wouldn't necessarily be great things for many students.

One size will not fit all in this situation, and unfortunately, that's all that our leaders seem capable of offering to students and parents right now.

This whole back to school thing is going to blow the top off of anything we've seen so far in 2020 in just a few more weeks. Ugh.

[btfc]

As I started to read your post, for your son, heading straight to college was one of my thoughts. Also, some combo of home schooling and real world experiences. Jobs in his areas of interest, community service/volunteering, or some form of activism would provide social benefits and useful knowledge. We’re living in interesting times, that offer interesting opportunities for growth and learning.

For your daughter, a tougher time to be separated from school and social circles. Regarding basketball, a structured training schedule, watching film, and working out with a select few friends/teammates might be helpful. One could look to what is happening with pros and postponed Olympics, etc. for some insight.

[deckeda]

Thanks. I know it’s up to us to provide some training structure, with or without a school coach. She’s not driven enough to get off the couch otherwise.

[mrlynn]

N-OS X-tasy! wrote:
The REAL problem is that we are forced to choose between bringing kids back into the schools or continuing on with at-home “learning” that has been shown to be anything but. Think COVID infection rates are climbing now? Wait until kids are back in school — infection rates will SKYROCKET far beyond anything we’ve seen so far. Death rates will closely follow.

I doubt it. Death rates from COVID19 are tiny for people under 45 years old. The biggest threat is to elderly teachers (and parents?) with serious health problems ('co-morbitities'):

https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/06/23/cor...race-14863

Some European countries are re-opening schools. Let's see how they do.

/Mr Lynn

[JoeH]

I would take any conclusions posted by ACSH with a very large grain of salt.

I would not compare the COVID-19 and education issue here in the US with most European countries, totally different level of cases and prevalence at this time.