9/11 plead guilty! Amazing

[deckeda]

swampy wrote:

Well, I thought all you libs wanted only the best for the Gitmo guys. ...

Of course! Free pets for all our friends! Here's yours, buddy!

[Black Landlord]

swampy wrote:
[quote=Greg the dogsitter]
I thought you were, when you expressed a desire that the terrorists be moved into the homes of a war veteran, the president-elect, and some others.

Well, I thought all you libs wanted only the best for the Gitmo guys. Heaven knows the ACLU et al have insisted they are nothing more than civilian criminals that should be tried in a court of law rather than military tribunals. How 'bout farm some out to George Clooney, Sean Penn, Michael Jordan and all the other libs that say the Gitmo guys have been "unfairly" treated.

Now you're saying they are terrorists and may be bad guys... You libs can't have it both ways.
Swampy,
I can't speak for anyone else, but as a card-carrying BHL I can share my perspective, and it goes like this:
Trying, sentencing, torturing people without process is not the american way. It's something our founding fathers tried to move beyond. That our government thinks it's OK makes it hard for many of us to be "proud" at the moment.
I'm having a hard time reconciling the values you have expressed here-- on the one hand you made an effort to make us more aware of the injustices endured by women in strict muslim environments; on the other you don't seem too intetested in the ideal of universal human rights when it comes to suspected terrorists.

[mattkime]

I've never understood why civilian courts aren't good enough for the terrorists.

[BigGuynRusty]

Black Landlord wrote:
I can't speak for anyone else, but as a card-carrying BHL I can share my perspective, and it goes like this:
Trying, sentencing, torturing people without process is not the american way. It's something our founding fathers tried to move beyond. That our government thinks it's OK makes it hard for many of us to be "proud" at the moment.

America has done torture since way back, it is not new.
We tortured the Japanese during WWII.
We tortured the Koreans during the Korean War.
We tortured during the "Vietnam Conflict".
It shames me that my country has done this.

BGnR

[Wags]

Wikipedia wrote:
Waterboarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in the Vietnam War.[61] On January 21, 1968, The Washington Post published a controversial photograph of two U.S soldiers and one South Vietnamese soldier participating in the waterboarding of a North Vietnamese POW near Da Nang.photo[62] The article described the practice as "fairly common".[62] The photograph led to the soldier being court-martialled by a U.S. military court within one month of its publication, and he was discharged from the army.

Wikipedia: Waterboarding

[mikeylikesit]

BigGuynRusty wrote:
[quote=Black Landlord]
I can't speak for anyone else, but as a card-carrying BHL I can share my perspective, and it goes like this:
Trying, sentencing, torturing people without process is not the american way. It's something our founding fathers tried to move beyond. That our government thinks it's OK makes it hard for many of us to be "proud" at the moment.

America has done torture since way back, it is not new.
We tortured the Japanese during WWII.
We tortured the Koreans during the Korean War.
We tortured during the "Vietnam Conflict".
It shames me that my country has done this.

BGnR
What a country does and what it officially espouses are never the same thing. Never before this administration have we allowed that we use torture as a weapon and that it's use is permissible.

They were on their way to actually codifying the use of torture before the floor fell out from under them.

[SteveO]

What BG and Mikey said. Actions speak louder than official policy.

CIA used to push prisoners out of helicopters at high altitude in Vietnam. Well, actually, I believe it was over the ocean. You get the idea. Still, nothing says Democracy and American "Judeo-Christian" Values like rants about putting "terrorists" in the homes of those who happen to be against ill treatment and sham trials of prisoners, no matter who those prisoners are. Did it ever occur to you, Swampy, to hold yourself and your nation to a higher standard, the standard, um...that ah...er...we were founded upon? That would be honor, integrity, justice and following our own US Constitution as we are a nation of LAWS? Giggle-giggle, I didn't think so.

The other thing your brilliant mind (the light it constantly gives off blinds me even through my MacBook screen!) forgets, Swampy, is that a lot of the Gitmo guests are innocents shoveled off their own sidewalks by their own governments, "rendered" to cheery places like Syria to be tortured with a wink and a nod from our current idiots in charge...hey wait a sec, hasn't Syria been on the Bushit list for a number of years as a terrorist-supporting state? Whoops, I guess that was a Freudian slip!

And then we take them in at places like Gitmo and Abu Ghraib, refuse them due process and do horrid things to them. That is a great way to serve as a beacon of democracy, fairness and freedom. And/or Christianity! Yes, let's have more minds just like YOURS leading our nation further into the abyss! Brilliant!

For starters on what some of these "terrorists," really are, look at the Canadian who recently won a major lawsuit against his government for LYING about him and turning him over to the "intelligence experts" in our guvmint. He was tortured unspeakably in Syria for several months and held in a small pen in the ground, among other horrors. He is finally free now. What of the rest of those like him?

Another case: look at the INNOCENT Chinese Muslims who have been in the news the past few months. Kidnapped, jailed, tortured -- for practicing their own religion and doing it peacefully to boot. Via inconvenience, malice and/or incompetence, these INNOCENT people AND THEIR FAMILIES have all had their lives destroyed by AND I'LL SHOUT IT OUT LOUD SO YOU CAN SEE AND HEAR IT, SWAMPS: TERRORISTS IN OUR OWN US of A GOVERNMENT. SAHHHH-LOOOOT! Boy, aren't we soooo proud of our guvmint right now? SAHHH-LOOOT!

Yeah, kill all them "terurists!" Wish 'em dead! Squeeze their heads right off! Somebody get me a pitchfork and a torch, maybe a noose and some electrodes, quick-like!



Good idea, Wags, time to go hand some dinero to the ACLU, EFF, etc.

[swampy]

SteveO...Oh, those poor terrorists in Gitmo.

You invoke our Constitution. Where does it say in our Constitution that enemy combatants captured on the battle field on foreign soil, with no uniform, no standing Army are entitled to any consideration under "our Constitution". They don't even fall under the Geneva convention. The whole situation is uncharted territory.

If you remember the preamble to the Constitiution says..."We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." It doesn't say anything about confering these rights to foreigners let alone to the enemy does it? I so dislike the one world view that says our laws and rights apply to everyone else.

Ever stop to think that just about anything we may do to said terrorists is done at a "higher standard" than anything they do to innocent civilians or our guys? I guess you think strapping bombs to women and children is fair and is of some "higher standard"? Beheadings, dragging bodies through the streets and burning corpses is okay?

As far as our CIA kicking people out of helicopters... You've got the story wrong. The way I heard it was that it was members of the Korean Intelligence that did that. Not saying it was right, but I've heard the rumors from guys who were there (including my ex husband who did 3 tours in Nam as a chopper pilot).

[MacGurl]

My head assplode. ::o

[OWC Jamie]

wipe your ears