Two state solution?

[special]

What is the alternative plan for those who oppose a two state solution?

For example Netanyahu opposes it. What is his goal?

[SteveG]

special wrote:
What is the alternative plan for those who oppose a two state solution?

For example Netanyahu opposes it.

For example Hamas and Islamic Jihad (plus Iran and Hezbollah) opposes it.

... along with assorted promises to murder all the Jews.

[numbered]

There is no alternative plan. That is the issue.

A one state solution will have Palestinians become a majority minority and threaten the "Jewishness" of Israel. The right wing in Israel wants to avoid this by preventing full citizenship. This is where the accusations of 'apartheid' come from. From their point of view they can continue to 'settle' the West Bank making any solution more impossible by the year. (And their hearts are really into ethnic cleansing.)

The most problematic thing is that there is no longer a 'left' in Israel of any size. The country has moved further and further to the right with each challenge to citizen safety. This is a natural reaction, but means a deal is farther away than ever.

Netanyahu has very cynically sought to allow these 'safety' issues to occur (eg, by looking the other way at Hamas). This has allowed the right to become stronger with each passing year.

This is why there is such despair in the rest of the world.

[numbered]

Steve G wrote:
along with assorted promises to murder all the Jews.

Leaning into the extremist's position is exactly what gets us here. I think Steve G's views shared here are in good faith--certainly more so than Bibi's--but it ends up in the same place.

Whatever gets shared here or in media needs to account for the fact that there are virtually no votes in Israel for any kind of left of center government any more. That ship sailed a generation ago. Which means settlements as far as the eye can see.

And the Palestinians dig in further as a result, spouting death slogans...and the circle gets worse.

[SteveG]

uh, that's in Hamas' 1989 charter

[SteveG]

https://apnews.com/video/israel-iran-ira...a37f6c76ed
Worshipers in Iran chant “Death to Israel” hours after suspected drone attack
Worshipers in Tehran chanted slogans against Israel hours after an apparent Israeli drone strike in Iran. It came days after Tehran’s unprecedented drone-and-missile assault on Israel.

[numbered]

I have to laugh.

I went from here to Drum's place. The story is of leaked audio from the Israeli Defense Minister making the rounds today on Twitter. The jist is that folks should 'ignore Biden, there never will be a Palestinian state':

Drum:

In one sense, this is a big "meh." Only a true Pollyanna could believe anything different. Still, it's always nice to get confirmation in blunt statements captured on tape. Israel has no intention of ever allowing a Palestinian state, full stop. After October 7, and with the Israeli electorate trending more conservative every year, I have no idea what kind of pressure could ever change their minds.

[bfd]

Well, at this point, you can pretty much assume that the number of Palestinians who really want to see Israel in charge of their futures is close to zero. Bibi made certain of that. What's left in Gaza is one giant refugee camp. Likely also part of "the solution". If they can't live there, they won't.

But where will they go? Apparently underground is no longer a physical option, but there are still plenty of other ways for them - Hamas and others of their ilk - to go underground …

[dk62]

Steve G. wrote:
https://apnews.com/video/israel-iran-ira...a37f6c76ed
Worshipers in Iran chant “Death to Israel” hours after suspected drone attack
Worshipers in Tehran chanted slogans against Israel hours after an apparent Israeli drone strike in Iran. It came days after Tehran’s unprecedented drone-and-missile assault on Israel.

Which came after unprecedented Israel's bombing of Iranian diplomatic building in Damascus.

What exactly is your point? How relevant to two-state solution?

[gabester]

I know what would guarantee a "two state" solution - threat of a NO STATE solution.

It's time the 15 million people (and if you want to expand that generationally etc I'll give you 90 million) in this tiny parcel of land known as Palestine for centuries prior to 1948 - land that is supposedly holy to half the world's population - stop occupying so much of the mental space in politics and generating so, so much inhumane violence.

There are so many more important problems to deal with.

Stop fighting. Get along. You have 90 days to do that, or evacuate because the whole region is going to be turned into a glassed crater.

I'll call up Macron and see if he'll take me up on this idea, since he seems eager to help out Ukraine militarily...