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Dr. Taub gives a little energy storage 101 lesson on today's video.
The end game is full-electric propulsion. Must evolve into it.
Plus for any Autoblogger fans, Sam is in this video.
http://www.autolinedetroit.tv/show/1335?play
"Our vehicles are (will be) electron-source agnostic"
The variables and choices are interesting they discuss.
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Yes, that was interesting but the whole fuel cell thing is absolute bs. Free hydrogen does not exist as a viable resource. The only feasible way to produce hydrogen is from petroleum (forget solar/electrolysis, that's ridiculously expensive and inefficient). As the non-GM guys pointed out, there really is no need for that. The problem is not with the fuel cell technology (though that is a huge hurdle), it's the fact that a hydrogen resource doesn't exist and even if it did, the storage and transport hurdles may be insurmountable (hydrogen won't stay in tanks and pipes made of earthly materials).
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I hope it is popular enough that it does not end up like the EV1.
A plug in conversion of a Prius would be tempting if you had a solar array like this.
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/10/14/sun...d-easy-to/
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davester, I agree with many of the hydrogen points you listed but I did bookmark a hydrogen pipeline advocate's blog recently. He is the first H2 promoter I have seen that says he wants to separate from the oil industry. He seems sincere but comes off as a bit of a wingnut and the possibility that the goal of solar/wind (nuclear?) replacing petro-biz being a red herring sticks in the back of my mind.
Some new H2 fuel cell test cars have a range of over 400 miles. That was the biggest hurdle I used to quote, getting enough storage for a decent range. Schwarzenegger's H2 Hummer conversion only being able to go 60 miles was a total joke.
New blog
Old blog
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No reason to fear a fossil-fuel powered range extender (cheaper and easier to implement than any fuel cell)
Right now we have batteries for a few dozen miles, plus a gasoline-burning range extender (40-50 mpg)
In the future, cheaper battery packs with larger capacity, maybe no need for a range extender at all.
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As Bill noted, fossil-fuel is a good range extender if we can shift the bulk of transport (which is primarily 30 mile and shorter daily distances) off fossil fuel. This was the point the non-GM guys were trying to make in the program. Most people don't seem to understand that hydrogen is NOT an energy source. You can either make hydrogen from fossil-fuels (which is ridiculous because it is much less efficient and very costly to do than just using the fossil fuel directly), or you can make it by electrolyzing water (same issue...very inefficient way to use electricity, not to mention the horrendous technical issues with storage and transport). Our new braniac Secretary of Energy recently tried to shut down the subsidies being given to hydrogen development because he understands that it is technological folly, and submitted a budget that would move that money to more logical technologies. However, he was overridden by the pols whose campaign donors (auto and petroleum industries) have been getting all that subsidy money. I'd guess that GM gets a lot of that hydrogen money which is why they are still pushing this silly fuel cell idea. So, a lot of our tax money is still going into this stupid boondoggle.
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Where does the electricity come from?
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The ONLY advantage of Hydrogen by electrolysis, which critics like Davester completely ignore, is that of transport of the "raw materials".
Electrolysis is inefficient in an energy-in-vs-energy-out basis... horribly so. But you can move water and electicity both with great ease to the point where you need the Hydrogen - and then split it there.
Transportation of HYDROGEN is difficult, bulky, and dangerous.
Transportation of water is EASY.
Electrolysis is dirt simple, and a plant to do it on a large scale and liquify the Hydrogen (and most likely just release the Oxygen to the atmosphere...) is only a modest difficulty.
As I said, Davester is 100% right about it's energy efficiency; a net LOSS.... A substantial one.
But it makes constructing an infrastructure from scratch a great deal easier than the idea of "hydrogen pipelines" or transporting liquid hydrogen all over the country in trucks.
For the time being, there's absolutely no reason to electrolize water to get hydrogen.
There will most likely NEVER be a reason to build a hydrogen powered vehicle, the energy density is just too low, and the storage of cryogenic hydrogen is not trivial, not easy, and not safe.
Unless there is a way to increase the density of Hydrogen, and store it at room temperature, then Fuel Cells are never going to be a viable alternative either.
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Paul F. wrote: There will most likely NEVER be a reason to build a hydrogen powered vehicle, the energy density is just too low, and the storage of cryogenic hydrogen is not trivial, not easy, and not safe.
Unless there is a way to increase the density of Hydrogen, and store it at room temperature, then Fuel Cells are never going to be a viable alternative either.
I was a big detractor of hydrogen and not just for the density/storage issue. Toyota gets a decent range out of their hydrogen fuel cell vehicle even with today's technology. If they can increase the density another 40%, the high efficiency should allow a very reasonable production vehicle.
http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/...echnology/
" The FCHV-adv achieved an estimated range of 431 miles on a single fill of compressed hydrogen gas, and an average fuel economy of 68.3 miles/kg (approximate mpg equivalent). While fuel cell technology has advanced significantly over the last few years, infrastructure must be in place for hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles to become a reality for consumers. "
How many battery only cars can go that far? OTOH, some battery only cars are getting equivalent ratings of over 200 mpg. :dunno:
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bruceko wrote:
Where does the electricity come from?
The same place it comes from now. The great thing about using electricity is that it is an incredibly flexible energy carrier. Unfortunately, most of it in the US comes from coal at the moment, but regionally it comes from hydroelectric, wind and gas (primarily the western US). and all current and likely future renewable energy sources produce electricity. In addition, the US has massive surplus electrical generation capacity at nighttime, which is when most electric vehicles would be charging.
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