Future of (GM) vehicles ... electric. Lesson today: Battery vs Fuel Cell

[davester]

Filliam H. Muffman wrote: I was a big detractor of hydrogen and not just for the density/storage issue. Toyota gets a decent range out of their hydrogen fuel cell vehicle even with today's technology. If they can increase the density another 40%, the high efficiency should allow a very reasonable production vehicle.:

That may be, but the vehicle technology has never been the biggest hurdle with hydrogen. The problem with hydrogen is twofold: 1) it doesn't actually exist as a resource and is costly (both in $ and energy); 2) its physical properties are such that it is a costly nightmare to store and transport. In short, there isn't any, and if we get any we can't hold onto it. So why is it talked about so much? Four reasons: 1) Most kids have had at least one science class where they electrolyzed water to make hydrogen...it seems so simple; 2) the petroleum companies can still stay in the game if we get rid of gasoline cars and transition to hydrogen (which can be refined out of petroleum); 3) it doesn't pollute at the tailpipe...the pollution is upstream where all the excess energy is burned to extract it; 4) there's a big r&d effort built up already based on boondoggle government funding programs created over the past few years. Those people pulling in big money for hydrogen research don't want to give up the money.

[Filliam H. Muffman]

If hydrogen is such a bad choice, why are Honda and Toyota making FCEV's... is it really only due to the machinations of Pig Oil desperate to retain control of a distribution network? Looking 10 years down the road, which is the "better vehicle" if you are using solar cells as the ultimate power source, a FCEV with a 430 mile range that gets 100 mpg, or a battery vehicle with a 200 mile range that gets 200 mpg?

[davester]

Ten years down the road is incredibly optimistic for having enough surplus solar to be able to pump it into a wasteful endeavor like creating hydrogen. I don't think anybody in the energy fields is even considering that. I am all for rapid deployment of solar, but even the fast track solar programs (i.e. China, Europe) are going very slowly relative to demand for renewables. We'd have to be very deeply into "solarization" before we'd start wasting all that expensive energy by using it to produce a low efficiency product like hydrogen. As I indicated before, the problem with hydrogen is that there isn't any.

As to why Toyota and Honda (and others) have been making fuel cell vehicles?...because they have received large government subsidies to experiment with it.

[Speedy]

Hydrogen works well if you have a surplus of generating capacity like we do at night. But don't use coal, use wind. Put up enough turbines to supply all the electricity you need during the day. Then at night make hydrogen and pump it into the ground. Extract this hydrogen as needed to generate electricity on-site.

[macphanatic]

Guy in NJ is using solar panels, an electrolyzer and LPG tanks to store hydrogen to power his house and car. While the article talks about the inefficiency of converting water to hydrogen, they make no mention of the efficiency of other energy storage techniques such as batteries.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0315/p12s0...tml?page=1

[davester]

macphanatic wrote:
Guy in NJ is using solar panels, an electrolyzer and LPG tanks to store hydrogen to power his house and car. While the article talks about the inefficiency of converting water to hydrogen, they make no mention of the efficiency of other energy storage techniques such as batteries.

Though they do mention the upfront system cost...$500,000!

[Bill in NC]

Hydrogen will never be cheap enough to use in light passenger vehicles.

Right now, with very low natural gas prices (cheapest feedstock), hydrogen still costs $8/kg (gallon of gasoline equivalent), IIRC.

Vehicle-sized fuel cells cost six figures.

The carbon-fiber hydrogen storage tank required for any decent range alone costs as much as a vehicle, and because it must be heavily engineered to contain hydrogen at such high pressure (10,000 psi), probably won't be coming down much in price.

To be fair, if someone could adapt the fuel cells that use natural gas to a version suitable for vehicles, then fuel cells could have a future in transportation.

[Filliam H. Muffman]

Honda CEO: People will embrace fuel cells when they realize battery limits
"He went on to say that while batteries are evolving, he didn't believe they would ever get to a stage where their performance would be acceptable as the primary energy carrier. Instead he said that "people would become more aware of the limits of BEVs" and come back to hydrogen fuel cells."

So he is saying this because Honda got some subsidies to make a couple of prototypes?