Store Discord May Result in Employee Walk-Out

[M A V I C]

mattkime wrote:
[quote=M A V I C]
[quote=mattkime]
>>*sigh* Why not just get another job?

just what an abusive manager would say!

That alone is not abusive. Not even close.
If you say that one more time, you leave me no choice but to walk out!
So tempting

[M A V I C]

Looks like the initial quote above is from http://www.ifoapplestore.com/db/2009/09/...-walk-out/

I didn't read all of the comments, but they seem to paint more of a picture. Management and store employees seem to agree that they hire "kids" and it's often their first real job. They seem to be upset with the low wage and the fact that promotion is based on performance.

I miss the days of Apple stores when I could ask the "Genius" 20 questions and he'd likely know the answer to all. And if he didn't, there was that red phone he could call and get an answer. Now they might know how to reset an iPod, but anything beyond that they are clueless. "Your Mac can't burn discs? Ok, we have to ship this back to Apple." Some here may remember when we had a GTG at a local Apple store when I dropped of my PB for repairs. The Genius disassembled it in front of me and diagnosed it there. Now they don't even open it up, they ship it back to Apple.

Their retail stores now are just retail sales for the most part. There no real knowledge at the stores anymore, and certainly not on the sales floor.

[guitarist]

Hard not to admire M A V I C's willingness to thrust himself into the narrative, and champion the unpopular and dysfunctional management at this particular store, while casually demeaning the concerns of the staff members. You go girl!

Though it's been a few years, I have first-hand knowledge of the employee point of view, having worked on staff at this particular location. My income there was not critical, it was a temporary job. But for those that work there full time, they take their jobs as seriously as I imagine M A V I C takes his job, and--like all of us--have every right to expect to be treated with fairness and respect in the workplace. Is that somehow not relevant if it's merely a low-wage "retail" job? I understood it to be the case no matter what type of job it is.

Sometimes standing your ground, to alter the climate, is more sensible than scrambling off to fill out applications elsewhere. Or not. Depends on the situation. But for an employee to be told to fold up and go work elsewhere if they don't like being mistreated? According to this view, mistreatment is justifiable because employees are easy to replace. Is this really a position worth defending?

When I was at this location, even as a part timer, I was aware of morale problems, and of an unfavorable climate between management and staff. I assumed it would pass, as turnover in retail would probably clear out the undesirable elements in middle management. Apparently it's still problematic. And high employee turnover only adds to the problem, it doesn't solve anything.

The irony is, the Apple Store is such a pleasant place to work, such an appealing job to have, that even under tyrannical, inept, careless, or slightly abusive management, it's still a reasonably fun place to work--in spite of those headaches--that's how good it is. Management would have to be really onerous, really abusive, to make the working atmosphere so bad that employee concerns would spill over to this degree.

But if anyone wants to champion the cause of bad management, and dismiss what likely are legitimate employee concerns, by all means, be my guest. In a just society, even poor management needs a defender!

[Jimmypoo]

guitarist wrote:

I used to work for that exact guy! His twin older brother was there too! (explain that one!)

The place could have been a great place, but will never be because only the interests of the wallet
apply - and "you are replaceable."


Thing is... everyone is replaceable. In business, in marriage, etc. Some people just have to use their power
to remind others of that fact every day - it's like crapping their own pants (for people that are into that
particular fetish).

It would truly be funny if the effects of it weren't so far reaching across a broad array of people and situations
that include life and death.

And of course, demands for respect only result in the reverse. Nobody wants to tell the Emperor that
they are walking through town with no clothes - just a dirty diaper and a dung covered weeny.
It's too entertaining to see them make fools of themselves trying to play "Big Man On Campus" when
they never really ever went to college!

The best part is hearing about people taking craps on the floor. I only got to hear about those before I
arrived and after I left. Still makes people bend at the waist from laughing so hard!!!

OFten makes me wonder if the retired Indy Colts coach has a hidden calling now that he has time....

[Jimmypoo]

>>>Hard not to admire M A V I C's willingness to thrust himself into the narrative, and champion the unpopular and dysfunctional management at this particular store, while casually demeaning the concerns of the staff members.


Not really. Just read more posts, and you'll be "not admiring" in no time at all!!

[M A V I C]

guitarist wrote:
Hard not to admire M A V I C's willingness to thrust himself into the narrative, and champion the unpopular and dysfunctional management at this particular store, while casually demeaning the concerns of the staff members. You go girl!

(Who's the one dishing out personal attacks?)

The two reasons that have been given as to why they don't like their employment are:
1) Their pay is low - If one's skills are worthy of higher pay, then take another job that pays better. If one's skills are not worthy of higher pay, get better skills.
2) Promotion is based on performance - what is wrong with this? Should people who create better results not be better compensated than those that don't? How do you expect it to work?

[...] But for those that work there full time, they take their jobs as seriously as I imagine M A V I C takes his job, and--like all of us--have every right to expect to be treated with fairness and respect in the workplace. Is that somehow not relevant if it's merely a low-wage "retail" job? I understood it to be the case no matter what type of job it is.

First of all, I haven't worked retail since college (where I worked two jobs so I could pay my own way.) I wasn't always treated with fairness and respect, that's par for the course when you don't bring much to the table.

Retail employees will almost always be treated as expendable, especially for large corporations. I am not saying that is the way it should be, but I'm saying that is the way it is and will pretty much always be. It's the way business works. Large companies like this cannot be dependent upon an entry level workforce. If they do, they fail.

If you've got some other points of mistreatment to bring up other than the two I mentioned above, please let me know.

Sometimes standing your ground, to alter the climate, is more sensible than scrambling off to fill out applications elsewhere. Or not. Depends on the situation. But for an employee to be told to fold up and go work elsewhere if they don't like being mistreated? According to this view, mistreatment is justifiable because employees are easy to replace. Is this really a position worth defending?

So tell me then, if employees are not promoted based on their performance, how should they be promoted? Tenure? This is a sales job, tenure doesn't work.

Management would have to be really onerous, really abusive, to make the working atmosphere so bad that employee concerns would spill over to this degree.

abusive |
adjective
1 extremely offensive and insulting : abusive language | he became quite abusive and swore at her.
2 engaging in or characterized by habitual violence and cruelty : abusive parents | an abusive relationship.
3 involving injustice or illegality : the abusive and predatory practices of businesses.

Which one of those three are you claiming took place at the Apple Store? The problems employees cited have been none of those three.

The closest I could find were descriptions that many employees are tech savvy and thus don't work well/understand the nature of sales. So when presented with sales goals, they simply don't work well with that. I admit, I'm the same way. I suck at sales.

[guitarist]

Thanks for the comments M A V I C, good discussion...

My use of the word "abuse" and "abusive" has been rejected for overstatement. An employee can feel mistreated, disrespected, or abused in the workplace without it necessarily reaching the level of a Dictionary definition of criminal abuse, or illegal conduct. Anyone who's ever had a job anywhere can barely get through a day without feeling abused on occasion, it's what we accept as part of the language of working for a living. Let's not get too clinical.

To look at this picture fairly, I think, it's more about the climate of unease and distrust between management and staff at this Apple Store, not so much about specific acts or complaints or grievance--though those are understandably how alleged misconduct is measured--it's how the atmosphere at this store got here in the first place. The lack of communication, an atmosphere of grief between managers and staffers. This, we are to believe, is an employee problem? It's the employees fault? It may be possible, but that's certainly a hard sell.

That's all my case is, really. I'm not in position to argue for or against specific grievances, but the climate that's developed there, that says more about how the store operates from day to day. In my experience there, my fellow employees were great, and the management wasn't so great. (I could say more, but not in this forum, I don't want to bash management unfairly, either, just to make a point) I could summarize by saying, it looked to me like it would function better with a different set of managers, not a continually-replaceable set of new employees.

It's also understandable that M A V I C's instinct would be to be skeptical of the employee complaints. And more inclined to be supportive of the managers. M A V I C, your legitimate bias against young Apple Store staff members is well established, you've gotten disappointing, ill-informed, and unhelpful service from the Apple Store staff. Your view of the average Apple Store employee is pretty dim. I'd suggest the conclusions you've drawn are somewhat colored by this grievance. Not tainted by it, but certainly influenced by it. Not that your observations are wrong. I'm just suggesting your conclusions about this store are premature.

Also, I think it's misleading to view it exclusively as a management/labor problem. It's all an employee problem. Consider this: management of these Apple Stores aren't corporate officers, or seasoned executives, they are little more than fellow Apple Store employees. A few years older, a slightly higher pay scale, a tad more responsibility, a different title on their business card, and one more key in their pocket, otherwise, they're indistinguishable from the people they hire. They're all Apple Store employees.

Which one of those three are you claiming took place at the Apple Store? The problems employees cited have been none of those three.

Fair point, but again, I'm less concerned about "the problems cited", this isn't an analysis of a textbook labor-management case study, though from the outside, I can see how that's all there is to go on. It's the communication f the workplace, management/staff relationship in general, that concerns me. If communication was good (if management was good) in the first place, it wouldn't have unraveled to this point. It's bogus to blame employees for a poor working climate. It's management's obligation to set the tone and maintain a well-functioning workplace.

The closest I could find were descriptions that many employees are tech savvy and thus don't work well/understand the nature of sales. So when presented with sales goals, they simply don't work well with that. I admit, I'm the same way. I suck at sales.

Yes, but you'd have fun selling Apple gear, M A V I C. On a different note, I'd add... if the economy were better, the sales goals reach themselves without pressuring low-level employees to take the heat for cautious spending by burdened consumers. When I was there, before the economic meltdown, iPods and iMacs jumped off the shelves, it was Apple's best year ever, selling Apple products was virtually effortless. I achieved goals easily, not because I'm any good at sales. Though Apple is performing better than its competitors, it's still a dark season for holiday shopping in general. Could this Apple Store standoff merely be a symptom of problems with sales goals and retail unease in general? Perhaps.

[M A V I C]

guitarist wrote:
Thanks for the comments M A V I C, good discussion...

Thanks. I'm not trying to shove anything down anyone's throat (though some might like to suggest I am.) I'm just trying to have a discussion. I do tend to believe people should exercise personal responsibility and especially recognize how they choices they make impact their circumstances. Someone once posted on here if I'm like this in real life - yes, I am. No, I don't have a lot of friends who I sit around and talk sports and weather with, but I do have quite a few that I have much deeper conversations and debates with. I'm the type of person who does not think an argument is inherently negative. It's just a discussion of two opposing viewpoints.

My use of the word "abuse" and "abusive" has been rejected for overstatement. An employee can feel mistreated, disrespected, or abused in the workplace without it necessarily reaching the level of a Dictionary definition of criminal abuse, or illegal conduct.

It wasn't just your use of the word. It's also the employee's use of the word and claims that the Apple store has violated labor laws. If they're saying Apple did something illegal, they should give an example or proof. In those comments, the best any employee could come up with were the two I gave.

To look at this picture fairly, I think, it's more about the climate of unease and distrust between management and staff at this Apple Store, not so much about specific acts or complaints or grievance--though those are understandably how alleged misconduct is measured--it's how the atmosphere at this store got here in the first place. The lack of communication, an atmosphere of grief between managers and staffers. This, we are to believe, is an employee problem? It's the employees fault? It may be possible, but that's certainly a hard sell.

How long have you lived in this area? That area has a real problem with an "entitlement" attitude. Many believe they should get paid more and do less. I graduated from high school in that area. I can't believe what's come of my graduating class. So when I read a manger's statement that the kids they hire don't want to work hard and complain about wages, it sounds much more believable than employees claiming they were abused.

If an employee thinks the job they took doesn't pay enough, who's problem is that? If the employee is disgruntled that better performing employees get the promotions, who's problem is that?

I'm sure the managers don't help the situation. Honestly, finding managers that can deal with those sorts of attitudes is rather tough, and likely the ARS doesn't pay enough to attract those types of managers.

I could summarize by saying, it looked to me like it would function better with a different set of managers, not a continually-replaceable set of new employees.

And that could very well be the case. I'm just saying based on the complaints the employees listed, that probably wouldn't be the case. (Unless, of course, the managers started giving promotions to the under-performing employees - which would probably create a whole new problem or two.)

It's also understandable that M A V I C's instinct would be to be skeptical of the employee complaints. And more inclined to be supportive of the managers.

Actually my initial take was the opposite. But after reading some of the details and language used, I grew skeptical. For example, I am skeptical they were abused. If they exaggerated with that language, then I bet that's not the only place.

M A V I C, your legitimate bias against young Apple Store staff members is well established, you've gotten disappointing, ill-informed, and unhelpful service from the Apple Store staff. Your view of the average Apple Store employee is pretty dim. I'd suggest the conclusions you've drawn are somewhat colored by this grievance. Not tainted by it, but certainly influenced by it.

I'd actually say the opposite. Management hired the clueless employees, they also made it so Mac support only has one long line. So I fault the managers for that. I just bring it up to point out how replaceable ARS employees are.

There is one example where I do fault the employees - when I told them exactly how to reproduce a problem and they wrote it down. When I came back, they said they couldn't reproduce the problem and proceeded to tell me all the methods they tried. When I asked if they tried the steps I told them, they said no.

Fair point, but again, I'm less concerned about "the problems cited", this isn't an analysis of a textbook labor-management case study, though from the outside, I can see how that's all there is to go on. It's the communication f the workplace, management/staff relationship in general, that concerns me. If communication was good (if management was good) in the first place, it wouldn't have unraveled to this point. It's bogus to blame employees for a poor working climate. It's management's obligation to set the tone and maintain a well-functioning workplace.

I go back to what I said above about the employees not sound that reasonable and the skill level required to handle that by management is probably not cost effective for Apple.

Yes, but you'd have fun selling Apple gear, M A V I C.

Reading the employees descriptions on how they get promoted, no, I don't think I would. Like I said, I suck at sales. I'd probably become a disgruntled employee. If I could just sit back and show people cool tricks, fix problems... I would. But if I've got to constantly be thinking "how can I get this person to buy MobileMe when I would never use it?" then I don't think it'd work for me. I'm the type of person that if asked if the i5 iMac performs as well as an i5 PC, I'd have to say Apple used slow RAM. That doesn't work for sales.

I did work a retail sales job once. I sucked at it. It wasn't for years I understood why. Now I know it's because I buy stuff based off of facts, and most people don't. So I'd present facts and expect them to sell themselves.

On a different note, I'd add... if the economy were better, the sales goals reach themselves without pressuring low-level employees to take the heat for cautious spending by burdened consumers. When I was there, before the economic meltdown, iPods and iMacs jumped off the shelves, it was Apple's best year ever, selling Apple products was virtually effortless. I achieved goals easily, not because I'm any good at sales. Though Apple is performing better than its competitors, it's still a dark season for holiday shopping in general. Could this Apple Store standoff merely be a symptom of problems with sales goals and retail unease in general? Perhaps.

Aaaaaahhhh. Bad economy = victim story. A business can't have sales employees citing external factors. Yes, they have an impact but I've seen companies fire entire sales divisions when/if this happens. A company is likely to push even harder in the bad economy. But citing excuses is not what management wants to hear from sales.

[Doc]

The walk-out was canceled, but the issues are still apparently unresolved.

I've read that the manager was shooting for a sales-bonus and it drive him to force workers to put in unpaid overtime and to hard-sell every customer on MobileMe and AppleCare.

'Last I read of it, the manager was still there and 3-4 people did quit over it.

[M A V I C]

Unpaid OT for hourly employees would be a labor law violation. Unpaid OT for salary employees would not only be OK, but it's somewhat expected. Being told to hard-sell every customer is neither a labor law violation or remotely "abusive." Those sorts of tactics don't work long-term, however, and it takes a select breed of sales people to do it.