Chipotle finding innovative ways to keep costs down in tough economy

[rjmacs]

Grace62 wrote:
However, I don't think that I9 enforcement has been in place long enough to react with such sweeping conclusions, this is new policy.
. . .
Deportation under the Obama administration has focused on people convicted of serious crimes, and the number of those deportation is up sharply, which is something I think we should applaud.
. . .
While the total number of fines and penalties is a constantly moving target, here are the latest statistics from ICE:

ICE criminally charged a record-breaking 180 owners, employers, managers and/or supervisors — up from 135 in FY 2008 and 114 in FY 2009.
ICE conducted more than 2,200 I-9 audits — up from more than 1,400 in FY 2009.
Since January 2009, ICE has imposed approximately $50 million in financial sanctions.
ICE debarred 97 business and 49 individuals in FY 2010, up from 30 and 53, respectively, in FY 2009.

The work to deport criminal aliens is fine, but the over-emphasis of this aspect of "immigration enforcement" unfortunately associates immigrants with criminality, and exaggerates the perception that immigrants are prone to lawbreaking. I'm not blaming the administration for this, but it's a problematic - if unintended - consequence.

I am willing to consider evidence of miraculous results from meager I9 auditing and enforcement as the policy plays out. However, i am unconvinced that deterrence in the form of fines (rather than, say, prison time) is likely to be effective. Auditing is anemic enforcement, chiefly effective in keeping those who are likely to comply in line. Those who stand to profit significantly by flouting the rules are weakly incentivized by the threat of minor financial sanctions. It would be interesting to know how many of the fined businesses were bankrupted by ICE action.

Conservative estimates place the number of unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. at over 10 million, and a Pew report this spring puts the number at 11.2 million. Since 2009, that puts ICE sanctions at about $4.46 per capita - about 37 minutes of work at the federal minimum wage. American business is not shy about making a fuss when federal action is significantly affecting its bottom line. So far on I9 enforcement, hardly a peep.

[Grace62]

You're making the same argument as the United States Chamber of Commerce, the most influential pro-business lobby in our nation. They also argue that I9 enforcement doesn't work and that it's unfair to businesses. They oppose the Obama administration's stepped up policies.
That makes me more inclined to give it a fair shot.

[rjmacs]

Grace62 wrote:
You're making the same argument as the United States Chamber of Commerce, the most influential pro-business lobby in our nation. They also argue that I9 enforcement doesn't work and that it's unfair to businesses. They oppose the Obama administration's stepped up policies.
That makes me more inclined to give it a fair shot.

That's a straw man critique, Grace62. I'm not representing the U.S. CoC (nor am i a big fan), and my points aren't drawn from their argument despite any apparent similarity. You are a stickler for asking forum members to respond to the substance of your comments, and not discount you by association. I think that's a good policy.

[Grace62]

You claimed that big business had made "hardly a peep" (your phrase) and that in fact is not so. That was my point. I wasn't claiming that you got your information from them, you clearly had not done that research.

[rjmacs]

Grace62 wrote:
You claimed that big business had made "hardly a peep" (your phrase) and that in fact is not so. That was my point. I wasn't claiming that you got your information from them, you clearly had not done that research.

Actually, i looked but wasn't able to find examples of the Chamber of Commerce criticizing I9 enforcement. Perhaps you can help me find it?

Any response to the substance of the rest of my comments? If i made a mistake in my research on what American business has said about I9 enforcement, i'm happy to acknowledge that. What about the argument itself?

[Grace62]

There is a US Supreme Court case pending around this issue. US Chamber of Commerce v. Whiting.
At issue is whether a state (in this case Arizona) can force businesses to use a federally funded database to verify employee immigration status and eligibility to work. I believe it's called e-Verify.
There's a lot more...the Chamber has had a great deal to say about immigration enforcement and the workplace and the general stance is that they don't want businesses encumbered with regulations, though those regulations are generally intended to help prevent exploitation of both documented and undocumented workers.

As for your other comments, I've already said that I'm in general agreement.

[haikuman]

Here is an amusing link ....

http://www.uschamber.com/issues/immigrat...ion-reform


Re: Chipotle finding innovative ways to keep costs down in tough economy
Posted by: Grace62 [PM] [Ignore this user]
Date: May 04, 2011 11:11AM
rudie,
I've already presented concrete ideas. I think that I9 enforcement, which is a dramatic ICE policy change from the Bush era, and which I suspect you may not fully understand, is effective and useful in reducing exploitation.
"giving back the land" is an interesting concept but useless without concrete details behind it. Again, what land, to which people, etc?

Otherwise, sounds like platitudes to me.

Your feigned ignorance of what has happened to Indigenous people during the last 500 years is most amusing, the further lack of recognition that it has happened throughout North America, South America, Hawaii and other Islands is self serving. You want to make sure your point is hammered and that seems to be more important than the big picture. Which should be an HONEST attempt to redefine who the lands of the America's belong to and how the rules and laws are applied.

Rudie

[Grace62]

haikuman wrote:
Which should be an HONEST attempt to redefine who the lands of the America's belong too and how the rules and laws are applied.

Rudie

For god's sake Rudie, show us an idea!! How do you want to do that?

[Grace62]

haikuman wrote:


Your feigned ignorance of what has happened to Indigenous people

Rudie

WTF?

[Grace62]

haikuman wrote:
Here is an amusing link ....

http://www.uschamber.com/issues/immigrat...ion-reform

That's your idea of amusing? Nice PR statement from the Chamber, that's their specialty. Look at what they actually do, which is spend millions on attorney fees helping businesses avoid compliance with expensive workplace regulations designed to help prevent exploitation.