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I just don't think the experience is worth $1000.
I don't care how anybody spends their money. Their choice.
But you said someone was suggesting you spend the money to do Apple Pay. And that's just not true, right? People were just talking about how convenient AP is.
An Apple Watch doesn't do much of anything without an iPhone, right?
Well, an Apple Watch does tell time, has alarm and timer functions, uses Passbook and Apple Pay, and has the Activity app functionality, all without the iPhone present, right? And wOS 2.0 will give it more autonomy, right?
So $650+$350 is the correct buy in number right? That's just a lot of dough and even $650 for just the iPhone is a tough sale for Apple Pay adoption. For me personally.
For a lot of people, personally.
But who suggested anyone, let alone you, should go out and get a 'Phone, or a 'Phone and a Watch, just to use Apple Pay? Anybody? No, nobody. Yet you keep bringing that argument up as though as though someone did. That implication has no merit.
I'm guessing that 99% of Watch owners already had a 'Phone, right? So the buy-in for most wasn't $1000. $350 may be too much for some people, but clearly a lot of Watches were sold. One day Apple may tell us exactly how many, but I bet a lot of other smartwatch manufacturers would love to have sold as many as Apple.
Any reason you think personal attacks make the conversation work better? I'm happy to discuss things without the name calling and such.
I called you out on your disingenuous statements. If you see that as personal attacks, so be it. I didn't call you any names in this thread, and only once before, in another thread.
Any reason you think your deliberately mischaracterizing of posts makes the conversation work better?
Recent reports indicate it has been, and may be an uphill battle, not just for Apple, but all the other coming payment systems.
I have no idea what reports those are, or how many of them address the battle as being only Apple's battle. Nonetheless, as NFC payments require NFC capable gear most merchants in the US don't have, it obviously becomes a chicken/egg CD/DVD/HDTV/Blu-Ray adoption problem. Merchants wait for the demand of NFC. Customers wait for the proliferation of NFC terminals, which are hardly ubiquitous.
I never, ever see anybody write a check at the grocery store anymore. Yes, someone, somewhere does. But it's certainly a very small percentage of the population. For very small purchases I see cash transactions about 60-70% of the time. For the weekly shopping, I almost never see anyone pay with cash; it's almost completely credit/debit.
It may be a struggle but there is no doubt in my mind that wireless POS payments will become much more popular, and not a novelty. NFC is not available in most places that I shop, and I won't go very far out of my way to use Apple Pay. But I will use it anywhere I am that supports it. I suspect I'm not alone in my shopping methodology.
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N-OS X-tasy! wrote:
[quote=vision63]
[quote=silvarios]
[quote=Bimwad]
The majority of folk whom I know carry iPhones capable of Apple Pay don't know, and seem not to care, of what it is, or can do.
Recent reports indicate it has been, and may be an uphill battle, not just for Apple, but all the other coming payment systems.
Seems like it thus far. Look how many people have Google Wallet and an NFC phone, like me, and just don't use it. Apple Pay will pick up more steam after most iPhone users are on an Apple Pay capable device, but it might still take some time.
You simply go to https://www.google.com/wallet/ Sign in with your normal Google userid/pass, attach a card to the account, make a pin code, download the app. Sign into it once and away you go. You can even have them send you a Google Wallet Debit MasterCard that's attached to the account in case you wanna use that instead. A monkey can do it.
I will never use Google Wallet because a) I don't trust Google, and b) I don't trust Google.
You trust your stupid bank. I don't even know your bank and I know they're stupid and corrupt. You trust Apple and they were actually hacked. What would Google do? Give away your credit card information? The outsized distrust of Google is irrational and silly. Don't be silly. I'm trusting you to be the Godfather of my next pet.
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vision63 wrote:
[quote=N-OS X-tasy!]
I will never use Google Wallet because a) I don't trust Google, and b) I don't trust Google.
You trust your stupid bank. I don't even know your bank and I know they're stupid and corrupt. You trust Apple and they were actually hacked. What would Google do? Give away your credit card information? The outsized distrust of Google is irrational and silly. Don't be silly. I'm trusting you to be the Godfather of my next pet.
Trust is such a weird thing, Microsoft, Apple, and company have done a pretty good job of smearing Google, even when they often do the same things. Siri sends everything you say back to Apple's servers, Apple's own privacy policy allows for sharing customer information with third parties to improve services or advertising. Microsoft sucks up tons of information about their customers as well. Both Microsoft and Apple run ad networks. But it's only Google who people can't trust?
Which is weird, because the proper response is to trust none of those companies, including the banks. We're all money makers for them, that's how they see us. I use Google products, I don't particularly trust them to do the right thing all the time. That clearly won't happen, which is why you remain vigilant against any shenanigans.
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RAMd®d wrote:
I just don't think the experience is worth $1000.
I don't care how anybody spends their money. Their choice.
But you said someone was suggesting you spend the money to do Apple Pay. And that's just not true, right? People were just talking about how convenient AP is.
In order to use Apple Pay you have to spend a minimum of $350. That's what I'm talking about. It's a tough sale for those of us not already equipped with such a device. Or if you put it another way, it better be convenient if I'm paying that much money for the service. And again, Google Wallet, while potentially much cheaper, is still not free and in general it's a tough sale for adoption (as I and others have discussed).
Again, it's called developing the conversation.
RAMd®d wrote: An Apple Watch doesn't do much of anything without an iPhone, right?
Well, an Apple Watch does tell time, has alarm and timer functions, uses Passbook and Apple Pay, and has the Activity app functionality, all without the iPhone present, right? And wOS 2.0 will give it more autonomy, right?
Nope, you have to have another iOS device to do most of that. Pretty sure Passbook and Apple Pay don't work without one. I meant truly stand alone, not I have to sync functionality and maybe some things work if I walk away from the phone. Again, that's a tough sale if all I want is to add the convenience of Apple Pay to my life. Which was my point earlier. Sounds like a great system, but it's pricey for non users to adopt. And while potentially cheaper, Google's system isn't necessarily free to add either. That's a comment about all of these payment systems, not an Apple slam.
RAMd®d wrote: So $650+$350 is the correct buy in number right? That's just a lot of dough and even $650 for just the iPhone is a tough sale for Apple Pay adoption. For me personally.
I'm guessing that 99% of Watch owners already had a 'Phone, right? So the buy-in for most wasn't $1000. $350 may be too much for some people, but clearly a lot of Watches were sold. One day Apple may tell us exactly how many, but I bet a lot of other smartwatch manufacturers would love to have sold as many as Apple.
I bet it was 100% of Apple Watch buyers already owned an iPhone, but I have no numbers to back that up of course. Do you think anyone switched from their current phone just to use the Apple Watch? The fact that Apple isn't releasing sales numbers is pretty telling. As a former stock holder, I always knew when a product was underselling when Apple refused to break down numbers.
But that's okay, I'm sure they aren't loosing money, the margins on those watches are way too high to lose money, and reported sales numbers seem high enough.
RAMd®d wrote: Any reason you think personal attacks make the conversation work better? I'm happy to discuss things without the name calling and such.
I called you out on your disingenuous statements. If you see that as personal attacks, so be it. I didn't call you any names in this thread, and only once before, in another thread.
Any reason you think your deliberately mischaracterizing of posts makes the conversation work better?
Because the conversation went from not having to deal with crumpled up bills (which was likely true even absent an NFC payment system present) to an Apple Watch makes it even better (which might be true, but man is that an expensive use case at the moment) to you accusing people of bias even when I poo pooed the cost to benefit ratio of the entire market segment, not just Apple. Seriously, you aren't reading my posts. I'm not accusing you of bias, I'm being as respectful as possible here, even though I'm pretty sure my protestations to keep things civil won't work (given past history).
My comment was:
I just used a vending machine that took Apple pay for the first time. It was next to the ice machine on the 5th floor of a Hilton in Phoenix. It is a great use for Apple pay since I didn't have to search for bills that the machine reader would accept."
A lot of these machines have accepted credit cards for years. No bills required, with or without Apple Pay, Google Wallet, etc.
Which competitor was I promoting? Credit cards? The one's tied to the same account used with Apple Pay and other payment services? My point was simply, sure Apple Pay et al are convenient, but most of these machines that take such payments also take credit cards. It's not like the only choice was to use crumpled up bills or coins. That's all. Then comments about using Apple Pay with the watch came, so I riffed off that, then Dan posted his thing. Etc.
No one else is yelling at anyone or bringing up biases. Just a discussion, then you drop that little nugget earlier. It's frustrating. Again, please keep threads an island, so the conversation doesn't get bogged down. Thank you.
To sum up after that tangent, I don't dispute Apple Pay is convenient, I just wanted to clarify payment options may have been more flexible than initially mentioned in the OP.
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pipiens,
I'm sorry if my post was misconstrued as a slam against you in anyway. I really didn't mean that and apologize for not clarifying my statement earlier. My fault man.
Keep us informed about your Apple Pay experience, it's certainly fascinating.
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GuyGene wrote:
I look at Apple Pay as a free accessory to people who already have an iPhone. Not a $650 entrance fee. So many people already have iPhones, so Apple Pay is great! Forget skimmers. Our Visa card name was stolen tow times! Just the number, and used for over $2,500 800 miles away. That could not happen with Apple Pay. Try being overseas when your credit card number is stolen, like I was the first time. Whew, wha' a headache.
Just one person's opinion of course, but my main beef with Apple Pay is Apple's ridiculous rationale for not including NFC in older hardware. Apple knew Apple Pay was coming soon, so why not throw older iPhone users a bone and include NFC when they first started the initiative? I can recall when my iPod touch suddenly had access to Bluetooth after an iOS update and similarly my Core 2 Duo MacBook suddenly had 802.11n after a firmware update.
Then I remembered almost the entirety of Apple's profits come from iPhone sales, and frequent upgrades is their whole business model. Which makes their generally positive OS update support strange, but I think that has something to do with keeping people keyed into the iOS ecosystem for media/app purchases). The only way to get Apple Pay without an iPhone 6 or 6 Plus is to upgrade your phone ahead of your own personal schedule ($650 minimum) or buy an Apple Watch ($350 minimum). Going forward it won't be a big deal, but the iPhone 5, 5s, and 5c owners haven't been considered at all except as an Apple Watch or iPhone 6 upgrade revenue streams.
Bottom line, no matter however you slice it, Apple Pay is a $650 or $650+$350 proposition unless you only plan on single sourcing such consumer goods so the cost is sunk anyway. Then again, imagine the huge business Apple could have if they released Apple Pay for Android NFC phones? They would make good money doing nothing, but slowly iterating an app on Android while still selling high margin smartphones with a huge host of other benefits? Or even adding Apple Watch support for Android? The last bit would be too expensive for my tastes, but it would surely add at least some slice of the 85% of the world using Android?
Win-win?
P.s. I haven't been an enthusiastic Google NFC payment user either, but I would love to be able to choose payment options irrespective of my phone choices. That's the dream anyway.
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vision63 wrote:
[quote=N-OS X-tasy!]
[quote=vision63]
[quote=silvarios]
[quote=Bimwad]
The majority of folk whom I know carry iPhones capable of Apple Pay don't know, and seem not to care, of what it is, or can do.
Recent reports indicate it has been, and may be an uphill battle, not just for Apple, but all the other coming payment systems.
Seems like it thus far. Look how many people have Google Wallet and an NFC phone, like me, and just don't use it. Apple Pay will pick up more steam after most iPhone users are on an Apple Pay capable device, but it might still take some time.
You simply go to https://www.google.com/wallet/ Sign in with your normal Google userid/pass, attach a card to the account, make a pin code, download the app. Sign into it once and away you go. You can even have them send you a Google Wallet Debit MasterCard that's attached to the account in case you wanna use that instead. A monkey can do it.
I will never use Google Wallet because a) I don't trust Google, and b) I don't trust Google.
You trust your stupid bank. I don't even know your bank and I know they're stupid and corrupt. You trust Apple and they were actually hacked. What would Google do? Give away your credit card information? The outsized distrust of Google is irrational and silly. Don't be silly. I'm trusting you to be the Godfather of my next pet.
Actually, I didn't trust my stupid bank (Wells Fargo)... which is why I became a credit union member a decade ago.
How was Apple hacked and was it in relation to Apple Pay? Details, please.
Google is in the business of datamining information about its users and selling those results to the highest bidder(s). They make no secret of this. It's not a stretch to believe that it would datamine info regarding purchases made using Google Wallet and sell that information. Apple, OTOH, has made explicit statements indicating that they do not and will not do that.
Just let me know when the baptism ceremony is and I'll be there.
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silvarios wrote:
Siri sends everything you say back to Apple's servers, Apple's own privacy policy allows for sharing customer information with third parties to improve services or advertising. Microsoft sucks up tons of information about their customers as well. Both Microsoft and Apple run ad networks. But it's only Google who people can't trust?
Which is weird, because the proper response is to trust none of those companies, including the banks. We're all money makers for them, that's how they see us. I use Google products, I don't particularly trust them to do the right thing all the time. That clearly won't happen, which is why you remain vigilant against any shenanigans.
I don't use Siri - it's turned off on my iOS devices.
Other than an old copy of MS Office and Remote Desktop Client on my MBP, I don't use MS products on my personal devices. I'm not sure how much info about me MS would be able to glean from that.
I agree with you - no corporation is completely trustworthy. I do believe, however, that some are more trustworthy than others. For me, Apple falls into that category, at least for now.
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N-OS X-tasy! wrote:
Actually, I didn't trust my stupid bank (Wells Fargo)... which is why I became a credit union member a decade ago.
How was Apple hacked and was it in relation to Apple Pay? Details, please.
Google is in the business of datamining information about its users and selling those results to the highest bidder(s). They make no secret of this. It's not a stretch to believe that it would datamine info regarding purchases made using Google Wallet and sell that information. Apple, OTOH, has made explicit statements indicating that they do not and will not do that.
Just let me know when the baptism ceremony is and I'll be there. 
Apple Pay has seen theoretical weaknesses discussed, but I don't think it's been hacked yet. Apple also compiles a lot of info on their customers, owns their own ad network (seriously, check out the amount of ad supported apps on iOS), and their privacy policy actually allows them to share customer info with third parties for advertising purposes. However, yes, you are right that Apple's whole business isn't built around advertising.
I don't trust Apple at all. Nor Google. Nor Microsoft. As such, my judgements are based or technical merits, budget, flexibility for customers, and degree of hostility to computer science. Security gets in there too at some point.
Really, you can't go wrong with a good device from any of these companies, but there's still no perfect solution.
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N-OS X-tasy! wrote:
I agree with you - no corporation is completely trustworthy. I do believe, however, that some are more trustworthy than others. For me, Apple falls into that category, at least for now.
That's fair enough. We all have to weight the pros and cons and see how these wonderful little gadgets and services fit into our own life.
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