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It is very simple Grace give back the rights to their land to these people. Naturally we will have to start the International Deportation Lottery *(:>*   :devil:
Perhaps you might want to actually suggest yourself how we could make things HONESTLY right....
instead of placing pious self-rightous bandaids in the winds for factual discourse... my gosh 
Rudie
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Rudie,
You don't know anything about my ethnic background, do you? Nor my experience with this issue.
If you want to "give back lands" then suggest something concrete, and let's discuss it. What land? Who are you giving it too? Who owns the land now?
I have the guts to put concrete ideas out there, do you?
Talk about "self-righteous" bandaids" ...you haven't proposed one concrete idea. Try it.
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Grace62 wrote:
Rudie,
You don't know anything about my ethnic background, do you? Nor my experience with this issue.
If you want to "give back lands" then suggest something concrete, and let's discuss it. What land? Who are you giving it too? Who owns the land now?
I have the guts to put concrete ideas out there, do you?
Talk about "self-righteous" bandaids" ...you haven't proposed one concrete idea. Try it.
Nor you mine Grace... action speaks louder than words ~!~ Put something HONEST down Grace.
I am not subject to your rules *(:>* None of us can live on our laurels .....
Rudie *(:>*
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I see. No concrete ideas.
That's what I expect when a comment contains nothing but baseless personal insults and junior high wiki platitudes.
If you have something substantive on the issue, please do discuss, because while we can't rewrite history, as you seem to wish, we can make a better future.
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Hi,
I'm waving a white flag furiously over here, because i see a potentially valuable conversation starting to spin out of control and turn ugly. :cursin: When the conversations here get personal, they have a tendency to get unpleasant. I don't think this is because personal = bad, but because personal = vulnerable, and defensiveness tends to rule the day.
Rudie: i don't think Grace62 is a xenophobe or neocolonialist trying to justify the displacement and genocide of Amerindian peoples.
Grace62: i don't think that Rudie is a radical polemicist uninterested in pragmatics and policy options.
If i could offer a humble reframing (if not, tell me to buzz off - i can take a hint): Grace62 has indicated that there are real problems of exploitation and respect for the law that exist as a product of immigration patterns today, and these exigencies require attention. This means trying to find practical, current solutions for problems that may appear to be relatively ahistorical. Rudie has pointed out that despite the appearance of the current problems, there is a long and troubling historical context that frames today's challenges. This history of colonialism and past injustices (that have real and contemporary consequences) impel us to frame our responses to today's policy questions with these in mind.
So the challenge is: how do we square this circle? Can we frame the current policy demands in a way that acknowledges that we don't begin on even ground, or an assumption of equity? Is there a place for acknowledgment of past injustices in contemporary policy? Or, is it appropriate to leave the sins of the past in the past, unaddressed, because those immediately responsible are long dead?
I don't think any of these questions invoke forum members' ethnicities or personal histories by default.
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Grace62 wrote:
I see. No concrete ideas.
That's what I expect when a comment contains nothing but baseless personal insults and junior high wiki platitudes.
If you have something substantive on the issue, please do discuss, because while we can't rewrite history, as you seem to wish, we can make a better future.
I am not trying to herd people like cattle Grace nor do I work with any association or government agency that does. No one is rewriting history, questioning it seems natural...
Grace~~> we can make a better future <~~ this is not trite Ms America Speak....? Give us something concrete Grace this is not a pageant *(:>*
Rudie *(:>*
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rudie,
I've already presented concrete ideas. I think that I9 enforcement, which is a dramatic ICE policy change from the Bush era, and which I suspect you may not fully understand, is effective and useful in reducing exploitation.
"giving back the land" is an interesting concept but useless without concrete details behind it. Again, what land, to which people, etc?
Otherwise, sounds like platitudes to me.
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rjamcs,
don't really see any concrete ideas in your post either.
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Grace62 wrote:
rjamcs,
don't really see any concrete ideas in your post either.
Yes, Grace62, you're correct. I thought it was prudent to separate my policy suggestions from my pleas for civility. The conversation, at the time of my most recent post, wasn't really fit for substantive contributions, as it had devolved to mud-flinging and insults.
I support comprehensive immigration reform legislation, including qualified legalization of status for immigrants already here. I am fine with assessing reasonable penalties for being here out of status (as part of an amnesty program); i heartily support those monies going toward English language and cultural-legal education programs for newcomers to America. I support deportation of unauthorized individuals convicted of serious crimes, but not minor infractions (rape, yes; shoplifting, no). I also support major increases in the annual limits placed on non-skilled worker immigration, particularly from Western Hemisphere nations (given historical colonial and economic legacies). I don't think that a guest worker program is adequate. I don't think that America is diminished by allowing more immigrants to join our society and citizenry through naturalization.
I think that enforcement, including I9, is at best a short-term response and is not a sustainable strategy. It still results in thousands of deportations, which has been shown to have absolutely zero net effect on cross-border traffic. In fact, the militarization of the the two major crossing points at San Diego and El Paso in 1993 has been shown to have had two key effects: first, it reduced the number of people who return home to Mexico seasonally; second, it increased the risks of border-crossing and professionalized human smuggling. It had no effect on the number of people crossing, but it did reduce the number of people going back.
I applaud the intention behind punishing employers rather than workers for violations; indeed, they are the ones profiting from cheap immigrant labor, and are in a better position to afford it. However, law enforcement does not trump the market when it comes to demand for labor. Congress increased the penalties for unauthorized border crossing in 1986 to no effect. People who cannot work or support their families at home will migrate to where there is work, period. We have no evidence or history of punitive enforcement against immigrants OR employers effectively limiting immigration.
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Now that you've deigned to join the conversation, I will say that I mostly agree. However, I don't think that I9 enforcement has been in place long enough to react with such sweeping conclusions, this is new policy. I still think that people are thinking of the Bush-era workplace raids, and that is not what I9 enforcement is. It's paperwork auditing.
Deportation under the Obama administration has focused on people convicted of serious crimes, and the number of those deportation is up sharply, which is something I think we should applaud.
Here are the real stats relating to I9 enforcement:
(sept 2010)
... Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Secretary Janet Napolitano and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Director John Morton announced record-breaking immigration enforcement statistics achieved under the Obama administration, including the imposition of approximately $50 million in financial sanctions for worksite enforcement violations. While most of the emphasis was on the arrest and deportation of criminal aliens, Secretary Napolitano emphasized that the Obama Administration would continue to hold employers accountable through the use of tools like I-9 audits, fines and debarments.
Latest Statistics
As we previously reported, penalties from worksite enforcement inspections have increased five-fold in Fiscal Year 2010 due in large part to increased employer scrutiny and several waves of I-9 audits. While the total number of fines and penalties is a constantly moving target, here are the latest statistics from ICE:
ICE criminally charged a record-breaking 180 owners, employers, managers and/or supervisors — up from 135 in FY 2008 and 114 in FY 2009.
ICE conducted more than 2,200 I-9 audits — up from more than 1,400 in FY 2009.
Since January 2009, ICE has imposed approximately $50 million in financial sanctions.
ICE debarred 97 business and 49 individuals in FY 2010, up from 30 and 53, respectively, in FY 2009.
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