Requiem for the Arab Spring

[Ted King]

Steve G. wrote:
The Egyptian women who were assaulted and raped during the Popular Democracy Demos at Tahrir Square could probably express an opinion about the "flowering of democracy and respect for individual rights".
Similarly the Coptic Christians.

While you were out celebrating liberal democracy, the populations of most Arab countries were ignoring or rejecting it. In the couple of places it did work (Tunisia and probably someplace else), it was nice. In Turkey (yeah, I know, 'not Arab') democracy has yielded an increasingly Islamist and authoritarian regime.

If you would reflect on the implications of what I said, you would see that if you agree with me that democracy that respects individual rights is something to be valued, then you would agree with my implied fairly harsh assessment of has been happening in many Arab nations.

All I see in your comments is criticism for me hoping at the time that we would see a flowing of democracy with respect for individual rights as though there were something wrong with hoping for such an outcome. Either that or you are swatting at phantoms of what you think I said.

Steve G. wrote:
We have to face the fact that with the major influence of poverty and religious extremism, this whole enterprise just isn't working out to be Des Moines.

Ergo, "requiem for the Arab Spring".

[SteveG]

Nothing wrong with being optimistic. But, based on known factors, it never stood a chance.

[rjmacs]

Ted King wrote:
It's true that many jihadists are not economically disaffected, but I think they do draw a great deal of strength from young men who are. I wonder if anyone has done a study on that.

What does it mean, exactly, to "draw a great deal of strength from young men who are [economically disaffected]"? I would think that the arguments from the jihadists would focus on economic development and opportunity if this were the case, but that hardly touches on their ideology which emphasizes the restoration of Islamic order in an increasingly colonized and corrupted society.

[Acer]

Ted King wrote:
[quote=Acer]
Religion: Does it drive the culture or reflect the culture?

10-12 pages, double-spaced 12 pt font, due two weeks before the end of the term.

False dichotomy. False dichotomy. False dichotomy. False dichotomy.

OK, how about "Religion: Does it drive the culture or reflect the culture or both?"

[rjmacs]

Acer wrote:
[quote=Ted King]
[quote=Acer]
Religion: Does it drive the culture or reflect the culture?

10-12 pages, double-spaced 12 pt font, due two weeks before the end of the term.

False dichotomy. False dichotomy. False dichotomy. False dichotomy.

OK, how about "Religion: Does it drive the culture or reflect the culture or both?"
Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture.

Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture.

Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture.

Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture.

Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture.

Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture.

Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture.

Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture. Religion is an aspect of culture.
... ()

[cbelt3]

The expectations of a country that has been a democracy for its entire existence as a multicultural polytheistic amalgm can only be assumed to be naive in the extreme when applied to other countries who are neither multicultural nor polytheistic.

American optimism is another word for 'You have no freaking idea what other countries are like, do you ?"

[rjmacs]

cbelt3 wrote:
The expectations of a country that has been a democracy for its entire existence as a multicultural polytheistic amalgm can only be assumed to be naive in the extreme when applied to other countries who are neither multicultural nor polytheistic.

American optimism is another word for 'You have no freaking idea what other countries are like, do you ?"

Any explanation for Western Europe?

[cbelt3]

rjmacs... similar... consistent democratic governments over multiple generations produces a more peaceful population. You can also look at Eastern Europe to understand the problems associated with the democratization of a population that had been under a dictatorship, and suddenly reverts to dictatorial politics through internal or external pressures.

The death of the Arab Spring can also be laid to external pressures. But the external pressures were predictable.... in a region with SO much transnational extremist / jihadist activity, the destruction of governments produced a power vacuum. And such organizations flow right in and start taking over.

If the external pressures had not been there, the movements may have had a chance. Personally, I think the external pressures were the root cause for the collapses. Blaming the locals for these collapses are naive. One might as well blame the citizens of ISIS territory for the organization's takeover.

[rjmacs]

cbelt3 wrote:
rjmacs... similar... consistent democratic governments over multiple generations produces a more peaceful population.

But what you cited was a "multicultural polytheistic amalgam," which didn't exist in those nation-states at the time of their democratization. That's all i meant.

Of course "consistent democratic governments over multiple generations" promotes continued stable democracy, but that's a tautology.

[Ted King]

cbelt3 wrote:
The expectations of a country that has been a democracy for its entire existence as a multicultural polytheistic amalgm can only be assumed to be naive in the extreme when applied to other countries who are neither multicultural nor polytheistic.

American optimism is another word for 'You have no freaking idea what other countries are like, do you ?"

I think I must have expressed things in a way that gave people the impression that I expected that greater democracy would be a result of the uprisings. I didn't expect that. There was an element to the uprising that fit the "Arab Spring" mold and I was hoping that it would gain traction, but I didn't expect it.